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THoR
Skeptic Friend
USA
151 Posts |
 Posted - 03/11/2006 : 09:00:34
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"Cogito ergo sum". I think, therefore I am.
One must exist in order to experience, and the fact that you experience is convincing proof you exist.
Your body; however, is not a single existence, it is a composite. It is comprised of billions of fundamental particles - a myriad of individual elements each with its own identity. One of those elements is YOU. The rest is the corporal garb you inhabit.
Every individual existence in the cosmos has had its own unique history particular to itself. A group of elemental particles cannot have a single experience. If all of the particles in your body had the capacity to think - each would have its own memory and its own separate consciousness. It is not possible for something to 'be' more than (or less than) a single existence, so the identity you experience must be that of a single element - or entity - hidden within the composition of your body.
This isn't rocket science. It has nothing to do with religion. It is simple reasoning and elementary deduction. Life was no chemical accident. Without elements which have the propensity for animation, the laws of nature would have been more likely to randomly evolve a Porsche than a single celled animal.
Proponents of intelligent design and disciples of Darwin are both partly right and partly wrong. Animated 'natural elements' DO evolve, but life could not exist without them.
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Sorry, I'm supposed to cite myself - theory of reciprocity
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I would procrastinate but I never seem to get around to it. |
Edited by - THoR on 03/11/2006 09:01:50
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 03/11/2006 : 09:25:52 [Permalink]
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Overly simplified reasoning which ignores the fact that complex systems exhibit "emergent properties" for which there is no reduction. In other words, your use of the word "must" is unjustifiable since known exceptions to the dichotomy you propose exist.
And "elements which have the propensity for animation" is pure anthropomorphism, which I would bet is based upon either a misunderstanding or an ignorance of molecular biology.
Finally, intelligent design proponents have no science, so they've got nothing to get "right." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 09:54:50 [Permalink]
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| I always preferred “coitus ergo sum.” |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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THoR
Skeptic Friend
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 09:58:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Overly simplified reasoning which ignores the fact that complex systems exhibit "emergent properties" for which there is no reduction. In other words, your use of the word "must" is unjustifiable since known exceptions to the dichotomy you propose exist.
Cite one.quote:
And "elements which have the propensity for animation" is pure anthropomorphism, which I would bet is based upon either a misunderstanding or an ignorance of molecular biology.
Has nothing to do with molecular biology. Something must exist in order to experience and nothing can "be" more than a single existence. To posit otherwise is logically indefensible (or at least a VERY interesting case of conjure)quote:
Finally, intelligent design proponents have no science, so they've got nothing to get "right."
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I would procrastinate but I never seem to get around to it. |
| Edited by - THoR on 03/11/2006 09:59:50 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 11:02:24 [Permalink]
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THoR said:
quote:
Cite one
Human consciousness.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 11:04:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Every individual existence in the cosmos has had its own unique history particular to itself. A group of elemental particles cannot have a single experience. If all of the particles in your body had the capacity to think - each would have its own memory and its own separate consciousness. It is not possible for something to 'be' more than (or less than) a single existence, so the identity you experience must be that of a single element - or entity - hidden within the composition of your body.
Do I even need to count the number of unevidenced assertions you are making in this paragraph THoR?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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nescafe
New Member
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 11:23:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by THoR
One must exist in order to experience, and the fact that you experience is convincing proof you exist.
Indeed.
quote:
Originally posted by THoR
Your body; however, is not a single existence, it is a composite. It is comprised of billions of fundamental particles - a myriad of individual elements each with its own identity. One of those elements is YOU. The rest is the corporal garb you inhabit.
How does that follow? Out of all the particles in the ocean, which is the one that makes it an ocean? Out of all the grains of sand on a beach, which is the one that contains the beachiness? Your statement is just as absurd.
quote:
Originally posted by THoR
Every individual existence in the cosmos has had its own unique history particular to itself. A group of elemental particles cannot have a single experience.
Sure they can. Their collective individual experience (to thoroughly murder that phrase) could be the sum of all their individual experiences, the sum of the difference if their individual experiences, or some more useful function.
quote:
Originally posted by THoR
If all of the particles in your body had the capacity to think - each would have its own memory and its own separate consciousness. It is not possible for something to 'be' more than (or less than) a single existence, so the identity you experience must be that of a single element - or entity - hidden within the composition of your body.
Or it could be an emergent property of the way the bosons and fermions that currently make up my body interact -- no special particle of consciousness needed.
quote:
Originally posted by THoR
This isn't rocket science. It has nothing to do with religion. It is simple reasoning and elementary deduction. Life was no chemical accident. Without elements which have the propensity for animation, the laws of nature would have been more likely to randomly evolve a Porsche than a single celled animal.
or, as unfulfilling as it is, the physical constanst of the universe could have just happened to have the right values to allow for the unusual binding strength between carbon atoms. Speculating as to causes for that is more akin to philosophical wankery than scientific investigation right now -- we need more data.
quote:
Originally posted by THoR
Proponents of intelligent design and disciples of Darwin are both partly right and partly wrong. Animated 'natural elements' DO evolve, but life could not exist without them.
What, exactly, do you mean by 'animated natural elements', ThOR?
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Insert witty saying here. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 12:13:41 [Permalink]
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I wonder if our friend THoR isn't indulging in a little subtle leg-pulling, as I noticed that this: led off the topic.
If so, good on you THoR! 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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THoR
Skeptic Friend
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 13:42:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
Every individual existence in the cosmos has had its own unique history particular to itself. A group of elemental particles cannot have a single experience. If all of the particles in your body had the capacity to think - each would have its own memory and its own separate consciousness. It is not possible for something to 'be' more than (or less than) a single existence, so the identity you experience must be that of a single element - or entity - hidden within the composition of your body.
Do I even need to count the number of unevidenced assertions you are making in this paragraph THoR?
Yup.
Some things are subject to the identity postulate.
Basic theory of math (got an A 35 years ago)
One thing has one set of experiences.
Two things have two sets of experiences.
5123456794667552 things have 5123456794667552 sets of experiences.
Is the math too simple here?
1=1
You are 1
Your corpse = ....I dunno lets say 10.625^8
Do you see the inequality here?
You can try to explain it away all you want, but it takes some STRONG argument to convince me 1 ain't 1.
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I would procrastinate but I never seem to get around to it. |
| Edited by - THoR on 03/11/2006 14:13:35 |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 13:53:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
I always preferred “coitus ergo sum.”
I boink therefore I am!  |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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THoR
Skeptic Friend
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 14:03:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by nescafe
quote:
Originally posted by THoR
One must exist in order to experience, and the fact that you experience is convincing proof you exist.
Indeed.
YEAH - and there's MORE...quote:
quote:
Originally posted by THoR
Your body; however, is not a single existence, it is a composite. It is comprised of billions of fundamental particles - a myriad of individual elements each with its own identity. One of those elements is YOU. The rest is the corporal garb you inhabit.
How does that follow? Out of all the particles in the ocean, which is the one that makes it an ocean? Out of all the grains of sand on a beach, which is the one that contains the beachiness? Your statement is just as absurd.
An ocean is a composite. It isn't AN existence it is a collection of existences. An beach is a composite. It isn't AN existence it is a collection of dudes chasing a buncha babes.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by THoR
Every individual existence in the cosmos has had its own unique history particular to itself. A group of elemental particles cannot have a single experience.
Sure they can. Their collective individual experience (to thoroughly murder that phrase) could be the sum of all their individual experiences, the sum of the difference if their individual experiences, or some more useful function.
So, 2=1. I find that fascinating. Two experiences equals one experience. Do you really think that carbon atom in your knuckle remembers when the atom of selenium that became part of your brain was eaten by that cow that became your last hamburger?
Get real.
quote:
Originally posted by THoR
If all of the particles in your body had the capacity to think - each would have its own memory and its own separate consciousness. It is not possible for something to 'be' more than (or less than) a single existence, so the identity you experience must be that of a single element - or entity - hidden within the composition of your body.
Or it could be an emergent property of the way the bosons and fermions that currently make up my body interact -- no special particle of consciousness needed...OR noted here
quote:
Originally posted by THoR
This isn't rocket science. It has nothing to do with religion. It is simple reasoning and elementary deduction. Life was no chemical accident. Without elements which have the propensity for animation, the laws of nature would have been more likely to randomly evolve a Porsche than a single celled animal.
or, as unfulfilling as it is, the physical constanst of the universe could have just happened to have the right values to allow for the unusual binding strength between carbon atoms. Speculating as to causes for that is more akin to philosophical wankery than scientific investigation right now -- we need more data.
Thought I mentioned this was simple elmentary deduction...quote:
quote:
Originally posted by THoR
Proponents of intelligent design and disciples of Darwin are both partly right and partly wrong. Animated 'natural elements' DO evolve, but life could not exist without them.
[quote]
What, exactly, do you mean by 'animated natural elements', ThOR?
I'm a SOUL, man. |
I would procrastinate but I never seem to get around to it. |
| Edited by - THoR on 03/11/2006 14:09:53 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 14:29:58 [Permalink]
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Nothing is funnier than watching someone try to rationalize a faith position.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/11/2006 14:31:09 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 14:56:43 [Permalink]
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THoR wrote: quote:
This isn't rocket science. It has nothing to do with religion. It is simple reasoning and elementary deduction. Life was no chemical accident.
Isn't it just amazing that thousands of years of great minds from all over the world have been debating over a point that was apparently as obvious as 1=1? Those silly philosophers. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 15:00:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by THoR
Life was no chemical accident.
Prove it. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 15:24:18 [Permalink]
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He's serious? Who'da thunk....
So, if I have the right take on this, and I may or may not, THoR is positing some sort of 'life force' or soul.
Ok, then by extension all life has the same, right down to cyanobacteria, virus', mad cow whatsits, and so forth. Heh, don't tell the Baptist preacher that, or Bill either, for that matter... 
I think that before we can put forth the concept of a 'soul' we must first define it, then seek evidence for it's existence. As far as I know, neither has been done to anyone's satisfaction beyond Churchy's.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 15:26:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by THoR
Your body; however, is not a single existence, it is a composite. It is comprised of billions of fundamental particles - a myriad of individual elements each with its own identity. One of those elements is YOU. The rest is the corporal garb you inhabit.
If "One of those elements is YOU" then we can remove the rest of the elements without loosing what is "YOU". This is obviously false. Remove a kilogram of brain tissue from You and You will not think anymore: hence, you will not exist. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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