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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 10/22/2006 : 00:21:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
If your acceptance of this evidence as being true hinges on whether a person saw one river of molten metal or two, that indicates to me that no level of specificity will satisfy you on this issue. Next you will question where it really was a "river" of molten metal they saw; how deep was the river, ad nauseum. And that's, at best, just a stone-walling tactic.
Actually, thinking about this more: no, the quantity and type of molten "metal" is actually vitally important.
Given a typical office building with lots of computers, smoke detectors and other electronics in it, and given just a low-temperature fire, and you'll get liquid tin at 231.93°, liquid lead at 327.46° and liquid zinc at 419.53°, just to name a few common metals found in electrical equipment.
Add to that the fact that much of the energy of the collapse itself (regardless of its cause) went into heating up materials (a lot), and it turns out that we can simply infer the presence of some sort of liquid metals in the basements of the towers for some non-zero length of time. We don't even need eyewitness testimony to know that "there were liquid metals under the collapsed towers" is undeniably true.
So, the testimonial evidence you linked to is superfluous, and thus its merit is completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not there were liquid metals in the basements. Demanding to pursue that simple unqualified question further is what would be stonewalling the discussion. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 00:52:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
If your acceptance of this evidence as being true hinges on whether a person saw one river of molten metal or two, that indicates to me that no level of specificity will satisfy you on this issue. Next you will question where it really was a "river" of molten metal they saw; how deep was the river, ad nauseum. And that's, at best, just a stone-walling tactic.
quote:
Actually, thinking about this more: no, the quantity and type of molten "metal" is actually vitally important.
Which is why I said they were important questions, dave!!!. They are just not relevant to the question "Was there molten metal in the basements." That's a pretty simple "yes/no" kind of question.
quote:
We don't even need eyewitness testimony to know that "there were liquid metals under the collapsed towers" is undeniably true.
Well, I don't think you know whether the metal you are referring to burned up or just melted. Also, since you don't know if explosives were used, you don't know if the machines you reference were pulverized or vaporized.
quote:
So, the testimonial evidence you linked to is superfluous, and thus its merit is completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not there were liquid metals in the basements.
Only if you are willing to make some unsupported assumptions... |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
| Edited by - ergo123 on 10/22/2006 00:53:47 |
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Master Yoda
Skeptic Friend
59 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 01:11:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
No, please don't. Assuming it a hypothesis implies I have a theory--which I don't at this point. Talk to someone with a background in science: first one observes; then one develops a theory to explain those observations; then one tests the theory by posing hypotheses based on that theory.
Then what are you trolling here, for? Oh, never mind, that was a self answering question, wasn't it. JAQing off! Do your own research, and by that I mean "research". You've posted a hundred snotty questions on multiple threads and any of us here has known where to find the raw material with the answers. Find them yourself. Come back when you're beyond the begging for attention stage.
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Once I have all the observations confirmed, I'll develop a theory that accounts for all the observations.
How can you assume that? Are you under a publishing deadline, that you have to posit a theory by the 31st? What if you actually learn to research and find that all your suppositions are bullshit and that you have no theory at all?
And how can you account for ALL the observations? There's a guy in Brooklyn who clearly observed that the plane that hit WTC 2 had no passenger windows. I'm a guy who from Jersey City saw the 767 and the windows on the plane. Please come up with a theory that takes into account the veracity of BOTH of those observations, let alone the tinfoilers who see pods on the underbelly. What you mean is that you'll come up with a theory that satisfies your selectively chosen observations.
quote:
Who appointed you spokesman for the forum?
Me! I read, and I can add and subtract, and when I see several forum members posting responses that amount to "So What?" about the metal, I can easily "observe" that phenomenom and extrapolate that they'd concede the worthless point you're making. And by the way, jackass, I distinctly mentioned to the forum as a whole that everyone was free to disclaim said concession.
quote:
I don't know. I'm still reading papers on the collapse. I'm sure I will want to confirm more claimed observations--but of what, I'm not sure yet.
Confirm them yourself, elsewhere, please! Frankly, I think this is pretense. You're wearing out your welcome rather than wearing down debaters, and you'll go with the "aw shucks humble" ruse for a while.
quote:
How do you know it was non-ferrous?
Because I'm smarter than you. While there's a slight possibility that some of the hot spots at ground zero might have gotten to the temperatures needed to melt steel, this has NOT BEEN PROVEN. Absent that proof, and adding the massive amount of steel beams on the ground that were recovered and recycled, I'll opt for the tons and tons of non-ferrous metal that would have been there.
(Go on ask me how I know there was non-ferrous metal in the towers.... I worked there, Sparky! I saw the ceilings and walls opened a few times and saw water pipes, wiring, conduit, and all sorts of goodies that were assuredly not steel. Plumbing is generally copper, brass, and even wrought iron. Wiring is copper. Conduit is aluminum. The tile ceilings were suspeneded from miles and miles of what looked like aluminum or an aluminum alloy to me.)
quote:
I doesn't necessarily--but others who reference this evidence of molten metal present it as evidence of use of explosivess or a.r.! So I guess that's an immediate next step--determine possible reasons for finding molten metal in the basements.
If you don't, then go figure out what they're saying before you add it as a leading paragraph in your OP. If you'd read them, you'd know that they're proposing this as a theory for thermite, but you've dismissed thermite when you were backed into another corner, haven't you.
quote:
You don't have to guess. You could always just wait until I develop and present my theory.
I don't have that many years left, son! I'm the Yoda, and I'm 412 years old, and at the rate you're going, I calculate that it'll be another 412 before you get past the preamble!
quote:
Well, so far your guesses have all been wrong. So I'd stop guessing if I were you...
Wheeee! How f*ing witty we are today? More type and run bon mots from another computer coward.
Yes, I suppose you're right.... end of guessing. State what you're proposition(s) is(are). Quit playing games. End of story. You're full it! You come back when you have a theory. That mask of JAQing off just doesn't work when you've trolled these boards with a hundred b.s. items. Every time someone asks for evidence, you dodge. Hell, you're even dodging your own questions in the OP!
I repeat: Where do these now fairly qualified and quantified questions about molten metal link up to your further hypothesis that you are "presenting evidence that explosives or a.r. were used.."
Those are your words, so support the contention or admit that you were just padding like the average troll!
So you don't have a theory? My opinion and observation says, "Yes you do!" And you can't argue with opinion and observation, can you?
You just won't post your theory because it's being forumulated? Bunch of Crap! You won't post, firstly because it's not yours, it's an amalgam of all the other crap we've heard before, and secondly because you're an attention-whore and you prefer this game of arguing minuteiae because it gets you longer in the limelight. Your trolling is pathetic. Ultimately, you really are rather stupid, you know. |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 01:32:16 [Permalink]
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I saw Loose Change for the first time about 6 weeks ago. I had heard a story on the radio about a couple of professors who were possibly going to get fired for discussing conspiracy theories. I went to the net to see what they were smoking.
I came upon LC and watched it. That was the first I had heard any of this conspiracy theory stuff.
So pardon me if I'm at a stage in my CT education that you were in before me. |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 10/22/2006 : 02:30:57 [Permalink]
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ergo, ergo, ergo.... Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't I see, back a few posts, you ask an utterly asinine question to the effect: "How do you know the liquid metal was non-ferrous?"
Did I or did I not show, complete with the melting points of various metals, ferrous and non-ferrous, that there was simply not enough overall heat generated to keep steel in liquid form?
Are you now saying that large portions of the rubble were possibly well in excess of 2,500 degrees F, and actually maintained that heat for a relatively extended period? Do you have any idea how hot that is, or how much energy it would take over that period to keep the temperatures that high? Or did you read all that stuff and simply dismiss it?
You need to do some independent research in the field of metallurgy, rather than lallygag around the forums. It is obvious that we can show you nothing, however well referenced, that you will accept.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 06:20:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
ergo, ergo, ergo.... Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't I see, back a few posts, you ask an utterly asinine question to the effect: "How do you know the liquid metal was non-ferrous?"
I asked that very question --although it wasn't asinine.
quote:
Did I or did I not show, complete with the melting points of various metals, ferrous and non-ferrous, that there was simply not enough overall heat generated to keep steel in liquid form?
You showed a chart and claimed there was not enough overall heat generated to keep steel in liquid form. But showing a chart and making an unsupported claim doesn't make it true.
quote:
Are you now saying that large portions of the rubble were possibly well in excess of 2,500 degrees F, and actually maintained that heat for a relatively extended period?
I'm saying I don't know what kind of metal had melted--that's all.
quote:
Do you have any idea how hot that is, or how much energy it would take over that period to keep the temperatures that high?
Yes.
quote:
Or did you read all that stuff and simply dismiss it?
I just dismissed your unsupported conclusion related to the information.
quote:
You need to do some independent research in the field of metallurgy, rather than lallygag around the forums. It is obvious that we can show you nothing, however well referenced, that you will accept.
Well, if you were an expert in the area I'd listen to you--but you aren't; so I don't. |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 06:49:52 [Permalink]
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I was a millwright at Phillips Metallurgical, a shell mold foundry in Swanton Vt. for four years in the early '70s. We poured ductil iron castings in silica sand/resin molds, using both arc and induction furnaces. We also did some cope and drag molding using green sand. I know precisely what it takes to melt and maintain ferrous metals in a liquid state. And the references, that you so blythly ignore are impeccable, as is the temperature chart.
Considering the information that you have been given, the question was beyond asinine and into Down's territory.
So where's this "theory" you keep mentioning? Where is the reference? Do you have anything at all to offer beyond hand-waving and cheap shots? Can you come up with any reason at all as to why you should be taken seriously?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 10/22/2006 06:51:13 |
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Master Yoda
Skeptic Friend
59 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 07:58:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
I saw Loose Change for the first time about 6 weeks ago. I had heard a story on the radio about a couple of professors who were possibly going to get fired for discussing conspiracy theories. I went to the net to see what they were smoking.
I came upon LC and watched it. That was the first I had heard any of this conspiracy theory stuff.
So pardon me if I'm at a stage in my CT education that you were in before me.
Do I take the bait, here? Yeah, I'm a real puppy inside. So I'm going to answer as though you just came in from the street and all you've posted is in the above quote box.
Assuming this to be true, why haven't you just read the links or why didn't you arrive here, instead of with a chip on your shoulder asking almost direct quotes from LC and Truther sites, and ask if anyone could cite good sites (with their excellent sight, no doubt) to get background information.
I'd start with 911Myths. It's very readable and the time will fly by, even thought it is chock-a-block full of information. I'd also read the 9/11 threads here, INCLUDING THE LINKS, and then proceed to Mark Iridian's Screw Loose Change, and for the Masters Course, get yourself a few pots of coffee and start making your way through the JREF "Loose Change" threads. There are literally thousands of posts over there, and they've had some of the major domos from the Truth movement drop in (Russell Pickering is over there right now, holding his own, but rather depressing in that he's still at some of your "beginner" questions), plus a few of the a**holes, too.
SFN: - HELP! Everyone has their own favorite decent information sites. Please add to the above - I just quoted the ones I regularly use. I do not go to all forums, though.
I don't speak for this forum. I'm as new a member as you are. But from the work I've seen, I don't think anyone's going to go into Auto-Pitbull mode on you if you ask and are willing to listen. But I think you ought to take note of the number of times posters will gladly answer with "I don't know"... We don't have ALL the answers. (For instance, Filth knows a helluva lot more about metallurgy than I do, obviously, but I don't think either of us allude to any chemical analysis of the molten metal... Why? Because there's been no such analysis done to the best of my knowledge.)
If, as Kil alluded to in a different thread, you play nice and don't assume a hostile stance on every question, you'll get a lot further. If after these ten pages, what your OP meant was "I don't have the answers to this stuff but people keep insisting it's related..." we could've gotten a lot farther a whole lot faster.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 11:29:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
Which is why I said they were important questions, dave!!!. They are just not relevant to the question "Was there molten metal in the basements." That's a pretty simple "yes/no" kind of question.
It's been asked and answered. Why is it that you refuse to move on?quote:
Well, I don't think you know whether the metal you are referring to burned up or just melted. Also, since you don't know if explosives were used, you don't know if the machines you reference were pulverized or vaporized.
Why would any of that matter? How many tons of explosives would be required to ensure that each and every soldered wire connection in the entire complex was "vaporized?" Since when would a lead/tin alloy "pulverize?"quote:
Only if you are willing to make some unsupported assumptions...
The only unsupported assumptions I see being made are your nonsense about pulverization and vaporization. You are assuming that those ideas are somehow pertinent to the question of liquid metal being in the basements of the towers. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 12:17:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
Which is why I said they were important questions, dave!!!. They are just not relevant to the question "Was there molten metal in the basements." That's a pretty simple "yes/no" kind of question.
It's been asked and answered. Why is it that you refuse to move on?quote:
Well, I don't think you know whether the metal you are referring to burned up or just melted. Also, since you don't know if explosives were used, you don't know if the machines you reference were pulverized or vaporized.
Why would any of that matter? How many tons of explosives would be required to ensure that each and every soldered wire connection in the entire complex was "vaporized?" Since when would a lead/tin alloy "pulverize?"quote:
Only if you are willing to make some unsupported assumptions...
The only unsupported assumptions I see being made are your nonsense about pulverization and vaporization. You are assuming that those ideas are somehow pertinent to the question of liquid metal being in the basements of the towers.
Do you know the difference between an assumption and a possibility? |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 12:45:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Do you know the difference between an assumption and a possibility?
I do, I do! (holding hand up and waving franticly)
A possibility is something that can be turned into an assumption with no effort and less thought. Remember when I mentioned cosmic possibilities, a little while back? Well, the possibility of molten steel in the WTC holes is similar to them. It gives grist for the woo-woo's mill to make assumptions based on mere ancedotes concerning it, just as the cosmic possibility of the Loch Ness Pleiosaur feeds a thriving tourist industry of wishful dreamers.
Were I in your shoes, I would be looking for reliable data on temperatures at Ground Zero following the collapse. That might not tell you what the metal is, but it will certainly tell you what it is not. Find just the right temps, and then you will have grounds to sneer at us all.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 10/22/2006 12:59:25 |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 13:10:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
I was a millwright at Phillips Metallurgical, a shell mold foundry in Swanton Vt. for four years in the early '70s. We poured ductil iron castings in silica sand/resin molds, using both arc and induction furnaces. We also did some cope and drag molding using green sand. I know precisely what it takes to melt and maintain ferrous metals in a liquid state. And the references, that you so blythly ignore are impeccable, as is the temperature chart.
Considering the information that you have been given, the question was beyond asinine and into Down's territory.
So where's this "theory" you keep mentioning? Where is the reference? Do you have anything at all to offer beyond hand-waving and cheap shots? Can you come up with any reason at all as to why you should be taken seriously?
And what evidence do you have that you worked in a foundry? None. So on what grounds am I to believe you? Faith?
If you mean my theory, I haven't developed it yet. |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 13:23:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Yoda
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
I saw Loose Change for the first time about 6 weeks ago. I had heard a story on the radio about a couple of professors who were possibly going to get fired for discussing conspiracy theories. I went to the net to see what they were smoking.
I came upon LC and watched it. That was the first I had heard any of this conspiracy theory stuff.
So pardon me if I'm at a stage in my CT education that you were in before me.
quote:
Do I take the bait, here? Yeah, I'm a real puppy inside. So I'm going to answer as though you just came in from the street and all you've posted is in the above quote box.
Bait? Nice impartial pov...
quote:
Assuming this to be true, why haven't you just read the links or why didn't you arrive here, instead of with a chip on your shoulder asking almost direct quotes from LC and Truther sites, and ask if anyone could cite good sites (with their excellent sight, no doubt) to get background information.
Someone who visits here suggested people on this forum would help me. As is clear from my very first post on this forum, I arrived with no chip on my shoulder. I came seeking help and was met by sarcasm
[quote]I'd start with 911Myths. It's very readable and the time will fly by, even thought it is chock-a-block full of information. I'd also read the 9/11 threads here, INCLUDING THE LINKS, and then proceed to Mark Iridian's Screw Loose Change, and for the Masters Course, get yourself a few pots of coffee and start making your way through the JREF "Loose Change" threads. There are literally thousands of posts over there, and they've had some of the major domos from the Truth movement drop in (Russell Pickering is over there right now, holding his own, but rather depressing in that he's still at some of your "beginner" questions), plus a few of the a**holes, too.
SFN: - HELP! Everyone has their own favorite decent information sites. Please add to the above - I just quoted the ones I regularly use. I do not go to all forums, though.
I don't speak for this forum. I'm as new a member as you are. But from the work I've seen, I don't think anyone's going to go into Auto-Pitbull mode on you if you ask and are willing to listen. But I think you ought to take note of the number of times posters will gladly answer with "I don't know"... We don't have ALL the answers. (For instance, Filth knows a helluva lot more about metallurgy than I do, obviously, but I don't think either of us allude to any chemical analysis of the molten metal... Why? Because there's been no such analysis done to the best of my knowledge.)
If, as Kil alluded to in a different thread, you play nice and don't assume a hostile stance on every question, you'll get a lot further. If after these ten pages, what your OP meant was "I don't have the answers to this stuff but people keep insisting it's related..." we could've gotten a lot farther a whole lot faster.
I just give back what I get.
Thanks for your help above. That is the kind of help I've been looking for. One twist t
ough--I'm not so interested in debunking Loose Change. It's not that i think it is true, but rather it obviously plays fast and loose with the term 'fact.' I'm much more interested in the physics of the actual collapse.
Thanks again. |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 14:41:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
I was a millwright at Phillips Metallurgical, a shell mold foundry in Swanton Vt. for four years in the early '70s. We poured ductil iron castings in silica sand/resin molds, using both arc and induction furnaces. We also did some cope and drag molding using green sand. I know precisely what it takes to melt and maintain ferrous metals in a liquid state. And the references, that you so blythly ignore are impeccable, as is the temperature chart.
Considering the information that you have been given, the question was beyond asinine and into Down's territory.
So where's this "theory" you keep mentioning? Where is the reference? Do you have anything at all to offer beyond hand-waving and cheap shots? Can you come up with any reason at all as to why you should be taken seriously?
And what evidence do you have that you worked in a foundry? None. So on what grounds am I to believe you? Faith?
If you mean my theory, I haven't developed it yet.
Another red herring! Damn, I should'a brung along a cast net. By now, I'd have enough bait go tuna fishing!
What evidence do I have that you are not drunk? Or, more concievably, have a brain rotted with syphllis?
All you have to do is open the links that have been provided you throughout, which you refuse to do, and you might learn something. As I stated before, and no evidence has been shown to the contrary, you are guessing -- I am not.
Refute me if you can, chump....
You don't have even the hope of a theroy, do you? Indeed, not even an inkling of what you are talking about. People who try to develope theories, or even a decent hypothesis, don't fuck around on forums. They study.
You will present exactly nothing; just keep going 'round and around like some spavined hamster on a lop-sided treadmill. That's ok. There's a certain amusement value in that.
Phillips, a job foundry, made parts for Edlund Can Opener and some of the recievers for Winchester 94 rifles. Also hammer heads among other small stuff. The company folded in the '80's.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 15:06:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
I was a millwright at Phillips Metallurgical, a shell mold foundry in Swanton Vt. for four years in the early '70s. We poured ductil iron castings in silica sand/resin molds, using both arc and induction furnaces. We also did some cope and drag molding using green sand. I know precisely what it takes to melt and maintain ferrous metals in a liquid state. And the references, that you so blythly ignore are impeccable, as is the temperature chart.
Considering the information that you have been given, the question was beyond asinine and into Down's territory.
So where's this "theory" you keep mentioning? Where is the reference? Do you have anything at all to offer beyond hand-waving and cheap shots? Can you come up with any reason at all as to why you should be taken seriously?
And what evidence do you have that you worked in a foundry? None. So on what grounds am I to believe you? Faith?
If you mean my theory, I haven't developed it yet.
quote:
What evidence do I have that you are not drunk?
Absolut-ly none... <hic>
quote:
Or, more concievably, have a brain rotted with syphllis?
Well, I can still type--but I guess you don't know it's me actually typing... 
quote:
All you have to do is open the links that have been provided you throughout, which you refuse to do, and you might learn something. As I stated before, and no evidence has been shown to the contrary, you are guessing -- I am not.
I have opened all the links you have provided, filth. But you have provided no evidence that I am guessing and you are not... You just keep saying it is so. Those links do not prove you worked at a foundry or know anything more about the topic than what is in your links. And your underlying assumption has been the same throughout your posts--that the collapses were not due to explosives or aluminothermic reactants. Not once have you considered the metal works under the towers run by the blue elves dude talked about...
quote:
You don't have even the hope of a theroy, do you?
I always have hope.
quote:
Indeed, not even an inkling of what you are talking about. People who try to develope theories, or even a decent hypothesis, don't fuck around on forums. They study.
That's quite the indictment of everyone (including yourself) on this board.
quote:
Phillips, a job foundry, made parts for Edlund Can Opener and some of the recievers for Winchester 94 rifles. Also hammer heads among other small stuff. The company folded in the '80's.
Ah. Is that why you picked them as the place you worked at? |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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Molten metal
