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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
 Posted - 02/24/2007 : 12:35:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Are you seriously offended by that comment? You've got to be kidding?
Where do I indicate offense?
You make a habit of reading emotional content that is not there. If I say something is a cheap shot and unbecoming of a skeptic, it's because I judge it to be a cheap shot that's unbecoming of a skeptic. Being offended or not is a separate issue.
If I become offended (or miffed) I will tell you. In the meantime, let's cease the red herrings, okay? |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2007 : 13:43:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
How about WE come to an understanding. That's your first problem.
It may be nit-picking, but if I understand something clearly and you don't, it's not we that needs to come to understanding.
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Your second problem is this "LIE" bullshit. Just because you used confusing pronouns and I followed what you said doesn't make me a liar. I am more than happy to hear you out on your correction.
I see you're still confused on some points.
I didn't call you a liar because you failed to understand the meaning of that one paragraph. That would be impossible because it's in that paragraph that I called you a liar.
I called you a liar because you made false claims. Claims that, unless you're an idiot (which I don't believe) you should know are false. Specifically, you cited your beliefs about torture and habeas corpus as my reason for believing you outside the mainstream when I had specifically given other reasons and hadn't even mentioned your beliefs about torture and habeas corpus.
<tortured rationalization deleted>
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
You constructed a poor sentence and called me a liar for reading it the way you wrote it.
Oh please. Take responsibility for your mistake and move on. Anyone can misunderstand something, but you continued in your misunderstanding even after having been corrected. What's your excuse for that?
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
You would be wise to pay a little more attention to sentence structure…
Oh now isn't that rich! Lol!
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal…and to stop calling people liars. I suppose expecting an apology for calling me one is expecting too much.
If we dismiss this issue there would still remain the issue of your claiming I like right-wing theocracy, over-consuming lifestyle and so on. I'll tell you what, I will agree to refrain from calling you a liar in the future so long as you agree to refrain from these false statements you keep throwing out. Does that sound fair? That should allow us to depersonalize the issues, elevate the level of debate, and waste a lot less time on these side issues.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2007 : 23:22:06 [Permalink]
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I guess it's pretty clear now, Mycroft, you live in your own reality.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2007 : 23:51:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I guess it's pretty clear now, Mycroft, you live in your own reality.
More of the same behaviour from you, beskeptigal.
For example, Mycroft pointed out that you took a cheap shot at some people (which you did), and instead of just owning up to it and moving on, you instead chose to fabricate a mindset for Mycroft while once again trying to change the subject away from your cheap shot.
And then rather than acknowledge that Mycroft made an attempt to bring your conflict with him down a level (however well or poorly the attempt was made), you instead chose to escalate it even further by suggesting that he is delusional.
I can only guess that you think that Mycroft has offended you so gravely that you're out for blood, but the one thing that's absolutely clear is that you've left rational discourse behind, beskeptigal. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 02:28:55 [Permalink]
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I stand by my post to Mycroft, it speaks for itself. In your "clouded judgment", Dave, you seem to think it's fine to call people liars. And it's fine to call them a liar based on the accuser's mistakes.
I began this post replying to yours but now I'm too disgusted to finish it. But I will post what I started since I wasted this much time on it already. Shows over otherwise. You and Mycroft can post whatever crap you want. You're both in the wrong here. And except for my refusing to post a nice response, I feel fine about "my behavior". 
Here's what I started:
If you are interested in resolving anything you can start by dropping your melodramatic outrage at whatever I have to say. That "behavior" of yours hasn't been helping matters here either.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
……Well, how can I possibly respond to that? You have made it perfectly clear that regardless of what my writing was intended to mean, you will give it whatever meaning you please.
Sometimes a person writes something which is mis-interpreted. I'm always willing to ignore what I thought something meant and take what is newly said. But other times a post has clear meaning not admitted to, maybe not even recognized.
I interpreted what I read and all the context doesn't change the tone. "I was...but your response is" doesn't disappear when you add additional surrounding context. So it would also help if you would drop your claim you don't think it's all my fault while your posts say that is exactly what you think.
Of course, with that in mind, I am saying something similar. It's all your fault.
So instead of outrage, melodrama, and insults, lets start with the premise one or both of us have missed what the other has said, and one or both of us doesn't see what the other's point of view is rather than your premise that I have "refused, dodged, or otherwise not "behaved" as you think I should have.
There's no rule that says I owe you supporting explanation, rationale, documentation or anything else. I can refuse. Big deal. Say you aren't convinced and move on. From my perspective you are miffed that I feel that way. So what gives? Why do I owe you a debate on anything? That is the core of this dispute the way I see it.
I started in on this post and after considerable time looking at past posts and the issues here. A pattern emerged. You have some baggage you are carrying over from the Net Neutrality discussion. Several of your complaints (specifics are further on) are claiming I “refused” to reply or assumed some motive or meaning on my part that wasn't correct. I was posting oblivious to the fact you were carrying baggage over.
Dave: you don't understand that I don't actually have a horse in these races, but am just trying to get you to provide me with the logic and evidence which would convince me that I should bet on your horse.
You don't understand that I don't want to convince you of anything. And this is a big part of the problem. I don't care if you are convinced. And I think getting pissed because I don't care is one of the things you are doing. Maybe you see it differently.
Dave: but you obviously think I had a "position" in the neutrality thread, despite me stating explicitly that I do not.
Regardless of whether you were arguing conviction or just demanding I give you a dissertation on my position, I simply wasn't interested in discussing it. Once you claimed you failed to see the analogy, it became apparent the discussion was going to involve too much effort on my part. The analogy is obvious to me. I believe it was obvious to Martha. I'm not going to argue why the analogy is valid so don't ask. I know it drives you nuts. Bite your tongue and just leave it at that. Maybe |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/25/2007 02:30:37 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 05:39:24 [Permalink]
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| See what kind of wild goose chases Dave will lead you into if you let him? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 06:52:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
But I will say one more thing. I bet you can't find one thing I've done except refuse to spend time supporting my position to you on a number of issues. And every post that you went off on your melodrama about "my behavior" is related to your expectation I owe you my time. I don't. You are clearly within your rights to say, "I'm not convinced" But you have no right whatsoever to accuse me of wrongdoing for not taking the time to discuss something you wanted to discuss, or for not meeting your debate standards.
Then what's the point of posting? That is, if you more or less admit that you don't bother to support your position and take the time to discuss something, then why come here and post your initial position on such-and-such topic? |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 07:19:16 [Permalink]
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| Dave is not interested in supporting positions. Dave is interested in wasting one's time and effort. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
 Posted - 02/25/2007 : 08:52:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Dave is not interested in supporting positions. Dave is interested in wasting one's time and effort.
Pot, kettle, black!
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 09:21:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Pot, kettle, black!
Finally, someone with some understanding.
You mean you've followed every word of this exchange and understand Dave's point? Maybe you can explain it to us. Maybe you can explain Dave to us. In fact, maybe you can explain me to us. Tell us what you know. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/25/2007 09:23:57 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 09:22:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Dave is not interested in supporting positions. Dave is interested in wasting one's time and effort.
Riiiiiiight That whole Surface of the Sun thing was a clever attempt by Dave to make Mozina waste his time. (Because for Dave time moves differently...) You're right on, Gorgo. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 09:35:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
(Because for Dave time moves differently...) You're right on, Gorgo.
quote:
You are the one that is right on. I made a blanket statement, but I was talking about this thread, and it also applies to some threads that I've been involved in. But, back to this thread. Please explain Dave to me in this thread. Don't go to any other. Just explain Dave to me in this thread.
In case anyone missed the part where I said someone had a point. I've never missed a beat in saying I was wrong, or that someone had a point, or that I apologized for being insulting. I cannot recall anyone ever apologizing to me here. Even people who changed their behavior after I called them on it. I can vaguely remember someone saying I had a point, but that I took that point too far. I do not recall anyone ever saying that they were wrong. I do not recall ever not backing up anything that I said, although I know, like Beskeptigal, there are just times when you don't waste your time with people. If you look at the archives, I've probably already backed up every statement somewhere, if they go back that far anymore. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/26/2007 06:40:26 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 10:55:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
quote:
(Because for Dave time moves differently...) You're right on, Gorgo.
You are the one that is right on. I made a blanket statement, but I was talking about this thread, and it also applies to some threads that I've been involved in. But, back to this thread. Please explain Dave to me in this thread. Don't go to any other. Just explain Dave to me in this thread.
Well since the statement was a blanket statement I assumed you were talking about Dave's activities in general. As for this thread, I have no idea-- I haven't followed all six pages. BSG went after me in the initial post, and I defended myself early on. Since then she's stopped replying to my posts. Either my defense was successful, or she's ignoring me. In any event, I've only poked my head on occasionally since then and so couldn't talk about Dave limited to just this thread. Why don't you ask him? |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 11:10:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
quote:
(Because for Dave time moves differently...) You're right on, Gorgo.
You are the one that is right on. I made a blanket statement, but I was talking about this thread, and it also applies to some threads that I've been involved in. But, back to this thread. Please explain Dave to me in this thread. Don't go to any other. Just explain Dave to me in this thread.
Oh look. Dave is a stickler for arguments presented as precisely as one would expect a critical thinker to present them. If we make an argument in the creation/evolution folder, there are standards that most of us adhere to, because we have to. Extending the way an argument should be presented, using critical thinking as the base method, should also be used in the politics folder on a skeptic site, even though the issues are not nearly as easy, or nearly impossible to move beyond an opinion. It's about the method of argumentation, not about the argument.
That said, I happen to agree with much of what beskeptigal has considered to be likely, or at least something to worry about. Before this gets overly personal, it's about how an argument is presented that is at issue here, and not about whether the argument holds water. It only becomes that if we get sloppy in our presentation of our case.
In my view, beskeptigal has important things to say, but this being a skeptic site, she needs to tighten up on her presentation of the evidence that supports her views, (which often happen to be my views as well.)
What I am saying, and what I think Dave is saying is we can't drop our usual standards, just because those standards become more difficult when debating politics. (And boy do they!) And I think that Dave is pretty even handed about that, being a stickler for correct debating tactics and all…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 11:24:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I stand by my post to Mycroft, it speaks for itself.
Which post would that be? The one in which the entire intent of your single sentence was to question his sanity?quote:
In your "clouded judgment", Dave, you seem to think it's fine to call people liars.
You're jumping to a conclusion. Just because I haven't addressed that yet doesn't mean that I'm "fine" with it.quote:
And it's fine to call them a liar based on the accuser's mistakes.
A position that you haven't sufficiently supported.quote:
I began this post replying to yours but now I'm too disgusted to finish it. But I will post what I started since I wasted this much time on it already. Shows over otherwise. You and Mycroft can post whatever crap you want.
Appeals to emotion.quote:
You're both in the wrong here.
A position that you haven't sufficiently supported.quote:
And except for my refusing to post a nice response, I feel fine about "my behavior".
Good for you.quote:
Here's what I started:
If you are interested in resolving anything you can start by dropping your melodramatic outrage at whatever I have to say.
Fabrication of an emotional motivation for me.quote:
That "behavior" of yours hasn't been helping matters here either.
Irrelevant.quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
……Well, how can I possibly respond to that? You have made it perfectly clear that regardless of what my writing was intended to mean, you will give it whatever meaning you please.
Sometimes a person writes something which is mis-interpreted. I'm always willing to ignore what I thought something meant and take what is newly said. But other times a post has clear meaning not admitted to, maybe not even recognized.
Appeal to secret knowledge.quote:
I interpreted what I read and all the context doesn't change the tone. "I was...but your response is" doesn't disappear when you add additional surrounding context. So it would also help if you would drop |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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My supposed left wing media sources
