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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2008 : 10:37:54 [Permalink]
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Filthy.....
Is the photograph you posted supposed to be of the Chinese saucer that is described in the Breitbart article? And it is described as four feet in diameter? That's one damn midget Chinese man standing there looking at it! Huh?
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
 Posted - 06/18/2008 : 13:32:13 [Permalink]
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Kil.....
| How do you mean that? Many skeptics support SETI. For years I had SETI at home. How cool would it be to have something of great interest to the researchers show up on your own computer screen? |
To begin with, I do not perceive you as a "professional" skeptic, which I define as a person that derives a primary income from expressing and promulgating skeptical views. Certainly Michael Shermer, James Randi (rarely performing as a magician currently), and the late Phillip Klass are/were professional skeptics!
I have no doubt that both Shermer and Randi would be totally astounded and confounded by the arrival on Earth of a genuine alien. I am certain that extraordinary efforts would be expended by both of them and a great many others, many in the US Government, to ascertain the legitimacy of a alien-in-the-flesh! Extraordinary evidence demands extraordinary examination!
And if the creature was indeed confirmed beyond any doubt as the genuine extraterrestrial article, it would be enormously embarassing (and financially damaging, because of their loss of credibility) to folks who have built their careers publicly stating that such an event is all but impossible. The same would hold for a conclusive demonstration of telepathy, psychokinesis, and many other declared to be all-but-impossible events.
I once asked James Randi this question: "James, if I flew into your Fort Lauderdale window on gossamer wings, picked you up in my arms and carried you to Los Angeles, swooped into the window of the Skeptic's Society offices and deposited you on Michael Shermer's desk in full view of Michael and his staff, would I qualify for the $1M prize?"
He answered: "No, we both would be hallucinating!"
A positive SETI result would not be in any way damaging to professional skeptics, as most (the perceptive ones) have expressed agreement with Carl Sagan's view that extraterrestrial intelligent life is a probability rather than a near-impossibility! Alien intelligence many light-years distant is quite a different matter that alien intelligence visiting Earth!in all likelihood, those objects are likely not of alien origin, which is based on a number of factors. Logistics being one main problems. That's to say the distances an alien ship would have to travel to get here, which translates into the time it would take them to get here seems rather impractical, at least from our frame of reference.
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Yes, I bolded your disclaimer because of the all-too-often repeated mantra of interstellar distances, Einsteinian speed limitations on interstellar travel, and suppositions about the physiology and psychology of alien beings; the topic of extraterrestrial visitation has become an reflexive hoo-haw among the intellectual elite. Perhaps because of all the levity, unwarranted assumptions are frequently made by the laughing nay-sayers.
Filthy, nobody's fool, states that an alien spaceship would have to be the size of an aircraft carrier because of the agriculture necessary to support aliens on such a long journey. The unstated assumption is that alien life would of necessity share the physiology and metabolism of Earth life. There is no reason to make such an assumption. Even the graven-in-stone concept that a molecule, atom, subatomic particle, quark, lepton, gluon or photon cannot exceed the speed of light is increasingly being subjected to questioning by recent developments in particle physics.
I feel it is extraordinarily presumptive, even arrogant, to assume that the present state of man's knowledge of the Universe is so complete and perfect that we are capable of even imagining what alien intelligent life might be or not be, much less make dogmatic s |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2008 : 13:45:11 [Permalink]
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bng said:
And if the creature was indeed confirmed beyond any doubt as the genuine extraterrestrial article, it would be enormously embarassing (and financially damaging, because of their loss of credibility) to folks who have built their careers publicly stating that such an event is all but impossible. The same would hold for a conclusive demonstration of telepathy, psychokinesis, and many other declared to be all-but-impossible events.
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Thats an absurd position to take bng. None of the "professional skeptics" I know of would lose credibility in the face of a genuine ET. Would they demand real evidence? Sure, but so would I. If such a being came with an evidenced explanation for it's presence on earth (an asteroid with an alien bacteria or a vehicle with a sentient traveller.. ) that could be examined by legitimate scientists... how exactly would anyone lose credibility? No one has declared such things absolutely impossible, just extraordinarily unlikely.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2008 : 14:19:10 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
I've said this before... pick a spot that has a lot of "UAP sightings", set up a radar instalation and point an array of telescopic HD cameras at the sky. Add in a high res HD nightvision camera a well...
... if you think it would be worth the effort. You'd undoubtedly draw a lot of attention, probably of the "pointing and laughing" kind.
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1. To my somewhat extensive knowledge, there is no particular "spot" that has a consistent history of extensive, repeated UFO sightings! One of the most curious aspects of the entire UFO/UAP thing is the world-wide geographical homogeniety of the sightings.
2. Because of my doubt that UAP is extraterresrtial in origin, I think that such an observational complex as you propose would be avoided like the plague by the "objects" that are causing these reports! When the professional crop circlers were first starting their hoaxing, they took great pains not to be observed! I do not mean to imply that most UAP sightings are hoaxes, obviously some are and are meant to be seen! But the hoaxers would not want to be photographed perpetuating their hoax!
3. A large network (thousands) of high-res cameras, as well hidden from the sky as possible (similar to secret surveillance cameras, but aerial in orientation) accompanied by radar equipment, might produce results.
Only the government could afford the cost of such extensive surveillance, and there is absolutely no reason why the government would go to all that trouble and expense because I believe that all of the information that it is possible to collect concerning UAP is already known by various agencies of the US government! Some is secret, some is not! But there is certainly no inclination on the part of the US Government to further investigate the "mystery" of UAP, as the US Government is very likely responsible for much, if not all, of the phenomenon.| But really, with the ubiquitous nature of video cameras in todays world, you have to explain to me why we don't already have some high rez images of these "UAP". |
Probably for the same basic reason that we don't have high resolution pictures of the 2010 Chevy Volt, or the 2009 Toyota all-electric that is rumored (in automotive circles) to have "drastic and dramatic" styling! Great pains have been taken to prevent amateur or professional photographers to obtain these images. I don't think it is a coincidence that as video and photo technology improved and became much more ubiquitous, images (and reports) of "UFOs" drastically decreased! |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2008 : 14:37:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
I don't think it is a coincidence that as video and photo technology improved and became much more ubiquitous, images (and reports) of "UFOs" drastically decreased! |
The people who ran one of Britain's high-profile UFO groups thought otherwise, and closed up shop ten (?) years ago when the ubiquity of video cameras was inversely correlated with the raw number of UFO sightings. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2008 : 15:51:36 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
| Thats an absurd position to take bng. None of the "professional skeptics" I know of would lose credibility in the face of a genuine ET. |
Randi's position on Extraterrestrial visitation is identical to yours, Kil's, and many other's - so unlikely because of the oft -mentioned speed, distance and intention factors that it is foolish to contemplate it; and is as adamant as his position on telepathy, esp, etc.
I think this position is highly defensible because of the lack of evidence for any such phenomena, but Randi has staked his reputation and a significant portion of his net worth on all such conjecture that can be tested. There is no doubt that if you could produce an ET out of your closet and present it to Randi's testers, if it truly was from Alpha Centauri, you and ET would bicycle home with a million bucks.
You don't think if Randi lost the $1M Challenge, even just one time, he wouldn't lose face and credibility, big time, with it?
One of the most frequent comments about Randi is, "he's never been proven wrong". He has stated to me privately in e-mail correspondence that several specific versions of woo are "impossible", and I think he truly believes it. Debunking is truly a profession, with him, and a commendable one. But his fame substantially rests on his infallibility.
We have different opinions, I doubt that either will ever be vindicated! I do not think that either is absurd, but I have low blood pressure! |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2008 : 16:15:06 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
Originally posted by bngbuck
I don't think it is a coincidence that as video and photo technology improved and became much more ubiquitous, images (and reports) of "UFOs" drastically decreased! |
The people who ran one of Britain's high-profile UFO groups thought otherwise, and closed up shop ten (?) years ago when the ubiquity of video cameras was inversely correlated with the raw number of UFO sightings. |
Thanks for the substantiation, Dave, but I don't understand why they thought otherwise!
ubiquity of video cameras = more video cameras
inverse correlation = one goes up as other goes down
number of sightings = decreased as number of cameras increased!
Sounds like they may have come to the same conclusion as I did!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2008 : 16:29:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Filthy.....
Is the photograph you posted supposed to be of the Chinese saucer that is described in the Breitbart article? And it is described as four feet in diameter? That's one damn midget Chinese man standing there looking at it! Huh?
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Yeh, that struck me as well. There's a couple of reasonable explanations, though: a scewed-up photo or, more likely & my favorite: the writer blew the number and his editor was too lame to catch it. After all, he had to convert from the metric and some of them, including me, have a little difficulty with that. He should have sat down and figgered, or used a conversion table.
Or... the "Chinese gentleman" is really an alien infiltrator and we've been invaded! Start stockpiling ammunition and can everything edible!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2008 : 17:34:59 [Permalink]
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| Filthy, nobody's fool, states that an alien spaceship would have to be the size of an aircraft carrier because of the agriculture necessary to support aliens on such a long journey. The unstated assumption is that alien life would of necessity share the physiology and metabolism of Earth life. There is no reason to make such an assumption. Even the graven-in-stone concept that a molecule, atom, subatomic particle, quark, lepton, gluon or photon cannot exceed the speed of light is increasingly being subjected to questioning by recent developments in particle physics. |
You got to go with what you know. No organism is a closed system. It must have a source of energy, in the case of larger, complex ones such as ourselves, ship's stores. It would be hard to guess what an alien organism would require by way of nourishment. It could be a sort of a "fungus," growing on the bulkhead, and even that would require a growing area; a large one.
"Man cannot live on bread alone, he must have peanut butter!"~~ Brother Dave Gardner.
As for exceeding the speed of light, particles are one thing, huge ships quite another. I know I'm committing the fallicy of arguing from incredulity, here, but from what information I have, I just don't see it happening. Perhaps, some time down the road, the science will demonstrate that I am wrong. Again.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2008 : 18:36:46 [Permalink]
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bng said:
| 2. Because of my doubt that UAP is extraterresrtial in origin, I think that such an observational complex as you propose would be avoided like the plague by the "objects" that are causing these reports! |
Well, that would be a result. Decreased incident rate in areas of intense observation...
You don't think if Randi lost the $1M Challenge, even just one time, he wouldn't lose face and credibility, big time, with it?
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Hell no! He'd be out $1M, but he'd also be they guy who finds evidence for something new and previously undocumented/evidenced. Randi would only lose credibility if he ends up faking or deliberately supressing something legit.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2008 : 18:40:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Thanks for the substantiation, Dave, but I don't understand why they thought otherwise!
ubiquity of video cameras = more video cameras
inverse correlation = one goes up as other goes down
number of sightings = decreased as number of cameras increased!
Sounds like they may have come to the same conclusion as I did! |
The makers of new cars go to great pains to hide their styles until the optimum moment. You appeared to be saying that the aliens are hiding themselves better since video-camera use is on the rise. Conversely, that British group saw the reduced numbers of UFO images as a sign that aliens don't exist. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 01:20:20 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
I said in the same post....| Because of my doubt that UAP is extraterresrtial in origin, I think that such an observational complex as you propose would be avoided like the plague by the "objects" that are causing these reports! |
How in the hell do you construe that to mean....| You appeared to be saying that the aliens are hiding themselves better since video-camera use is on the rise. |
Jeezuz, Dave talk about putting non-existent words in my mouth!| Conversely, that British group saw the reduced numbers of UFO images as a sign that aliens don't exist. |
Or that whoever made and flew the UFOs didn't want them being observed. This constant assumption of "aliens" as the most likely possible builders/pilots is peculiar - I would put "aliens" at the bottom of my list of suspected UFO fabricators! Contractors working for our and/or possibly other governments would be at the top!
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 02:41:10 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
| Hell no! He'd be out $1M, but he'd also be they guy who finds evidence for something new and previously undocumented/evidenced. |
That's like saying that Uri Geller was the guy that found new and undocumented evidence that there were spoons he couldn't bend, when Randi and Johnny Carson made a damn fool out of him on national television.
Usually, when someone loudly and publically proclaims that something is true or untrue and challenges any and all to prove him wrong, if he is unquestionably shown to be wrong, he loses a lot of credibility.
I don't think this is about to happen to Randi, as he chooses his battles very carefully, but if Uri Geller - who had been bending spoons all over the country - had actually possessed psychokinesis, taken the Challenge, and proceeded to bend Randi's heavy-duty spoons with his mind; Randi would have looked like a fool for loudly doubting him, and certainly would not have discovered new and undocumented evidence of Geller's ability, Geller had been demonstrating it for years! |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 06:15:52 [Permalink]
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bng said:Usually, when someone loudly and publically proclaims that something is true or untrue and challenges any and all to prove him wrong, if he is unquestionably shown to be wrong, he loses a lot of credibility.
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Yeah, and if that was what Randi had/has done, then you'd be right. Good thing for him that he has taken the rational approach and never proclaimed that the existance of the supernatural or ET is 100% impossible.
Randi, with his challenge, has simply invited the frauds of the world to come prove they are real.
I completely disagree with your contention that Randi losing his $1M would result in him losing credibility as well. Its like saying a scientist loses credibility when another scientist demonstrates a hypothesis to be wrong. You only lose credibility if you cling to the falsified hypothesis in the face of the evidence that falsified it.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 06:35:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
I think this position is highly defensible because of the lack of evidence for any such phenomena, but Randi has staked his reputation and a significant portion of his net worth on all such conjecture that can be tested. There is no doubt that if you could produce an ET out of your closet and present it to Randi's testers, if it truly was from Alpha Centauri, you and ET would bicycle home with a million bucks.
You don't think if Randi lost the $1M Challenge, even just one time, he wouldn't lose face and credibility, big time, with it?
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The money doesn't actually belong to James Randi, and it never did. It was donated by an anonymous source for the explicit purpose to boost the reward. Back in the old days, when the prize was only 10'000US, those money did belong to Randi. And when the reward was raised to $100'000US, it was thanks to commitments of other people. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Does UFO now mean "Alien Spaceship"?
