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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 06/07/2007 : 13:09:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
It isn't anyone's fault, it just is.
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I'd rather place the blame on God. If it's not the kid's fault, nor either of the parent's fault, who else is there to blame? God is supposed to be loving and all that, surely he must have enough to spare?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 13:17:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Next, four days a week is 208 days a year. Six days a week is 312 days a year. So in both the 17th and 18th centuries, serfs were working a heck of a lot more days "for the government" than a middle class worker. And a modern day middle class worker has more freedom of mobility and lifestyle.
Serfs were certainly less free than people today in modernized societies. So exactly when did this supposed trend of decreasing freedom begin?
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How much state-sponsored education did the average person in the 17th and 18th century get? Or healthcare? Public transportation? Other services?
Taxation to pay for stuff that we get today, that serfs back then didn't get, must not be included if the comparison is to be fair. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 13:31:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I was not trying to say that the parents only have a responsibility to stay married but to stay married and cultivate a loving relationship and create a stable family for the children. If people are just going to stay together without the committment then I agree that the effect on the children can be severe. It is the parents responsibility to create an atmosphere where the children can thrive as best as they can.
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Well, agreed - but nobody - at least nobody sane - gets divorced for the heck of it, as you seemed to suggest. So what was the point? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 13:37:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by marfknox
Next, four days a week is 208 days a year. Six days a week is 312 days a year. So in both the 17th and 18th centuries, serfs were working a heck of a lot more days "for the government" than a middle class worker. And a modern day middle class worker has more freedom of mobility and lifestyle.
Serfs were certainly less free than people today in modernized societies. So exactly when did this supposed trend of decreasing freedom begin?
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How much state-sponsored education did the average person in the 17th and 18th century get? Or healthcare? Public transportation? Other services?
Taxation to pay for stuff that we get today, that serfs back then didn't get, must not be included if the comparison is to be fair.
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Much of the "stuff" we get did not exist or was not needed during the time of the serf.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 13:52:41 [Permalink]
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Marfknox said "First, the comparison does not take into account that in modern times, people under the poverty line pay no income tax and receive all the same services and more. And under a progressive tax, those who make the highest amount of money pay the highest tax, so those who are, as you say "working to pay for government" the most are the ones with the greatest luxuries and most income. Sounds pretty damn fair to me."
1. People under the poverty line do pay taxes on their income (i.e. social security and Medicare)
2. Those that pay a higher income tax work less days to pay the tax owed despite the fact the the rate is greater.
3. People in the middle of the income tax brackets work the most days to pay their tax.
4. Most taxes outside of income are regressive, hitting lower income earners the most.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 14:09:43 [Permalink]
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Marfknox said "Next, four days a week is 208 days a year. Six days a week is 312 days a year. So in both the 17th and 18th centuries, serfs were working a heck of a lot more days "for the government" than a middle class worker. And a modern day middle class worker has more freedom of mobility and lifestyle."
Yes, but the system started with 5 days a year and then moved onto 50 days a year.
Keep in mind, many "freemen" choose serfdom, as it was better than other options. It was possible to leave the position of serf.
And I would contend with the freedom of lifestyle argument. There were many fewer intrusions into the personal everyday lives of the serf than there are into the personal lives of working people today.
The point is to compare the beginning of the serf system through its conclusion with our current system. It correlates with the current system of progressively taking more labor from the workers. The time frame of this same system with two names has been reduced from 6 centuries to 100 years. we are nearing the conclusion to this system.
How many people do you know that own the homes they live in and the land they live on?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 14:19:02 [Permalink]
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Marfknox said "I notice that again you failed to address several of my other points, including that at least in the modernized world (most of which is more socialist than the USA) women have far more freedom than in decades passed, and certainly a lot more than in centuries passed, slavery is abolished, and people have greater social mobility as well as geographic mobility. Oh, here's another: the death penalty today is only used sparingly by modernized states, but just over 200 years ago they were still hanging witches in the USA and Britain, and capital punishment was much more common for much lesser offenses. Is this not another increase in our freedom? Today's system is a far far superior and fairer economic system/power structure when compared to serfdom."
These points are all of societal changing of values, and the perceived conclusions to those changing values. These points tend to be argued with emotion and the nuances are forgotten.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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TRACEYT.
New Member
USA
11 Posts |
 Posted - 06/07/2007 : 14:53:24 [Permalink]
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Have you never heard of Michael Savage, the only SOB who understands what is going on in our country....same-sex marriage=mass hysteria in a country too afraid to say what they know is true....But,But..The Emporer has no clothes! |
traceyt. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 15:09:04 [Permalink]
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Michael Savage was kicked off MSNBC for telling a caller to go to a bath house and get AIDS.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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TRACEYT.
New Member
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 15:20:20 [Permalink]
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| To Jerome da Gnome-Even Michael acknowledges a mistake...can happen, bro |
traceyt. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 15:38:48 [Permalink]
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Savage contradicts himself if you listen to him often. He is very funny and knowledgeable; an enjoyable car ride.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 15:52:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Siberia
Well, agreed - but nobody - at least nobody sane - gets divorced for the heck of it, as you seemed to suggest. So what was the point?
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No, but people do get divorced without really trying to make it work. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 15:54:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Siberia
Well, agreed - but nobody - at least nobody sane - gets divorced for the heck of it, as you seemed to suggest. So what was the point?
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No, but people do get divorced without really trying to make it work.
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Current society has taught everything is disposable.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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TRACEYT.
New Member
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 16:03:05 [Permalink]
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 Ah, Jerome, my most valued friend....who else but Michael would tell you that the Kansas City airport is planning to install basins designed for Muslims to wash their feet (and other body parts) before prayer...when they are btw. flights....Have they ever heard of the separation of church and state? Aye, laddie, you won't find this news item on the "Today" show or the pompous, self-important, NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams....as ever, Traceyt. |
traceyt. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
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Same-sex Marriage
Topic Locked
