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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2007 : 08:12:40 [Permalink]
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Kil, thanks for those links. This paragraph: quote:
In other words, it is not good enough that there are lots of people who unquestioningly accept evolution as a fact. It is not good enough that there are lots of people who dismiss ghost stories out of hand. It is not good enough that there are lots of people who laugh at the idea of alien abductions. It is not good enough that there are lots of people who would avoid an “alternative health practitioner” like the plague.
reminded me of the introduction to Wendy Kaminer's book "Sleeping with Extraterrestrials: The Rise of Irrationalism and Perils of Piety", where she admits to personally believing in the benefits of homeopathy. I remember the very moments I read that. I was in a hotel room, reading along, and was suddenly struck with an icky feeling. Wendy Kaminer - a fine champion of skepticism - who I'd seen speak at the Freedom From Religion Foundation, who wrote such great articles against irrationality, she of all people believes that homeopathy works!? I was disgusted. I instantly lost respect for her. Disallusioned, I wanted to put the book down.
But later, very slowly, it started to sink in. I re-read the passage where Kaminer admits this belief. It was no promotion of homeopathy, and no deep expression of certainty over the supposed benefits of such "medication". It was openness - Kaminer was letting the reader see her cards. She described a very personal experience of illness and the use of homeopathic medication after turning first to treatments backed by science. She fully admitted that homeopathy has no evidence to back up its supposed benefits, and that her benefiting was possibly just a placebo or maybe her illness just got better for other, unknown reasons, which happened to coincide with the homeopathy. I realized, if it was placebo, she'd best keep believing in it or it would stop working! The point is, Kaminer did believe in the power of homeopathy for herself personally, but she held this belief very tentatively, with eyes wide open to its shortcomings and the public consequences of making homeopathy part of public insitutions (i.e. she would not demand it be paid for by tax dollars or that public schools teach children how great homeopathy works.) and thus, her skeptical integrity remained fully intact.
Anyone seen that episode of Mythbusters where they are testing treatments for sea-sickness? At one point they decide they need to do a test with a placebo, so they lie to the poor guy in the sea-sickness machine (who was one of the skeptics on the team) and tell him that they've given him an over-the-counter, conventional medication for sea-sickness. It worked - he was less sea-sick. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/03/2007 08:13:17 |
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ejdalise
Skeptic Friend
USA
50 Posts |
 Posted - 04/03/2007 : 08:28:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
In my own words from SFN's About Skepticism section of our main menu:
What is a Skeptic and Why Bother Being One?
Yup. You answered earlier in the thread as well. . . . oops . . . I was not supposed to reply to posts! Dang.
ejd |
--- Disperser ---
Winning enemies and aggravating friends since 1953 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2007 : 09:17:34 [Permalink]
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marfknox said:
quote:
I realized, if it was placebo, she'd best keep believing in it or it would stop working!
A person's belief has nothing to do with the placebo effect.
It is an illusion arising from the way medical experiments are conducted.
May 2001 New England Journal of Medicine pulished a paper that demonstrated placebo and no treatment have the same effectiveness for curing people.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2007 : 10:00:34 [Permalink]
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That doens't mean the placebo effect is a total myth, only that it does not work to improve objectively measured symptoms. From wikipedia's entry on "placebo"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo#Objective_or_subjective_effects.3F: quote:
Objective or subjective effects?
Hrobjartsson and Götzsche published a study in 2001 and a follow-up study in 2004 questioning the nature of the placebo effect. (Hrobjartsson 2001, Hrobjartsson 2004) They performed two meta-analyses involving 156 clinical trials in which an experimental drug or treatment protocol was compared to a placebo group and an untreated group, and specifically asked whether the placebo group improved compared to the untreated group. Hrobjartsson and Götzsche found that in studies with a binary outcome, meaning patients were classified as improved or not improved, the placebo group had no statistically significant improvement over the no-treatment group. Similarly, there was no significant placebo effect in studies in which objective outcomes (such as blood pressure) were measured by an independent observer. The placebo effect could only be documented in studies in which the outcomes (improvement or failure to improve) were reported by the subjects themselves. The authors concluded that the placebo effect does not have "powerful clinical effects," (objective effects) and that patient-reported improvements (subjective effects) in pain were small and could not be clearly distinguished from bias.
These results suggest that the placebo effect is largely subjective. This would help explain why the placebo effect is easiest to demonstrate in conditions where subjective factors are very prominent or significant parts of the problem. Some of these conditions are headache, stomachache, asthma, allergy, tension, and the experience of pain, which is often a significant part of many mild and serious illnesses.
The same wikipedia article also reports studies done on the placebo effect for alleviating pain and depression. quote:
Placebo and pain
Careful studies have shown that the placebo effect can alleviate pain, although the effect is more pronounced with pre-existing pain than with experimentally induced pain. People can be conditioned to expect analgesia in certain situations. When those conditions are provided to the patient, the brain responds by generating a pattern of neural activity that produces objectively quantifiable analgesia. (Benedetti 2003, Wager 2004)
Evans argued that the placebo effect works through a suppression of the acute phase response, and as a result does not work in medical conditions that do not feature this. (Evans 2005) The acute phase response consists of inflammation and sickness behaviour:
* Four classic signs of ‘inflammation': tumor, rubor, calor, and dolor – swelling, redness, heat, and pain.
* Sickness behaviour: lethargy, apathy, loss of appetite, and increased sensitivity to pain.
[edit] Placebo and depression
A brain-imaging study found that depressed patients who responded to the placebo effect showed changes in cerebral blood flow, which were similar to the changes in brain function seen in patients who responded to anti-depressant medication. (Leuchter 2002) Other studies argue that up to 75% of the effectiveness of anti-depressant medication is due to the placebo-effect rather than the treatment itself. (Khan 2000)
Whether any actual pain is alleviated or not, if a placebo can convince a patient that their pain is less or gone, that is a benefit to that patient.
Edited to add: Especially if other methods of pain |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/03/2007 10:05:31 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2007 : 10:42:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
The point is, Kaminer did believe in the power of homeopathy for herself personally, but she held this belief very tentatively, with eyes wide open to its shortcomings and the public consequences of making homeopathy part of public insitutions (i.e. she would not demand it be paid for by tax dollars or that public schools teach children how great homeopathy works.) and thus, her skeptical integrity remained fully intact.
I wouldn't agree with that at all, because of all the easy-to-find information about how homeopathy "works," the only way for Kaminer to have kept her "skeptical integrity" would have been to be intellectual honest with herself and state that she believed in the "power of placebo," because that's what it is. The actual claims of homeopaths are pure bunkum. There is no "power of homeopathy."quote:
Anyone seen that episode of Mythbusters where they are testing treatments for sea-sickness? At one point they decide they need to do a test with a placebo, so they lie to the poor guy in the sea-sickness machine (who was one of the skeptics on the team) and tell him that they've given him an over-the-counter, conventional medication for sea-sickness. It worked - he was less sea-sick.
Yes, placebos are wonderous things. And it would be wrong to state, after that Mythbusters episode, that the "power of B12" is to alleviate the symptoms of sea-sickness (because they gave Adam a vitamin B12 pill as the placebo). You're trying to give Kaminer a pass at doing just that for homeopathy, though.
And if she had to keep believing in a falsehood so that it'd keep working, that may be of practical benefit, but in no way is it in keeping with what I would consider "integrity." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2007 : 12:46:53 [Permalink]
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And I think the jury is still out on the nocebo effect:
http://skepdic.com/nocebo.html |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2007 : 20:06:46 [Permalink]
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marfknox said:
quote:
Whether any actual pain is alleviated or not, if a placebo can convince a patient that their pain is less or gone, that is a benefit to that patient.
Ok.
But there is no placebo effect for curing illness or injury.
For things like relief of pain, or other symptoms, it would be interesting to see a study of things like distraction techniques compared to placebo effects.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2007 : 21:27:09 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: quote:
You're trying to give Kaminer a pass at doing just that for homeopathy, though.
No, I'm not. I wish I could find my copy of the book and actually quote her actual words. Unfortunately I've searched my house and not found it, and couldn't find the text online either. If anyone else out there has the book and wants to take the time to find the quote in the introduction, that would help.
You have skipped over the whole point. The point was that Kaminer was admitting to holding an irrational belief that she can't help believing in due to personal experiences and feelings. But she does admit it is an irrational belief, not knowledge, and her criticism in her skeptical writings is against the social institutionalizing of irrational beliefs over facts. THAT is what she gets a "pass" for. THAT is how she keeps her skeptical integrity. If it will help, I retract all statements I (not Kaminer) made at all about placebos. That was more of an aside, not my main point in bringing up Kaminer's experience with homeopathy.
Edited to italicize "I" and the following part in parentheses. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/03/2007 21:31:23 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2007 : 21:53:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
The point was that Kaminer was admitting to holding an irrational belief that she can't help believing in due to personal experiences and feelings. [bolding mine]
Wha? What do you mean she can't help believing? Of course she can help it, otherwise promoting skepticism would be entirely pointless.
People can let go of their their irrational beliefs, Marf, but when you make excuses for them not to do so, you are acting as an enabler. The world doesn't need more apologists for crazy.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/03/2007 21:56:45 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2007 : 05:25:32 [Permalink]
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Humbert wrote: quote:
Wha? What do you mean she can't help believing? Of course she can help it, otherwise promoting skepticism would be entirely pointless.
People can let go of their their irrational beliefs, Marf, but when you make excuses for them not to do so, you are acting as an enabler. The world doesn't need more apologists for crazy.
Apparnetly I am not getting my thought across clearly. This is frustrating since I've been bringing up this point for almost a year now. There is a difference between personal beliefs and acceptance of facts. There is also a difference between the personal/private and social/public.
I reject the notion that people can choose their personal beliefs. I cannot choose to believe in fairies. I am an atheist (not just a weak atheist either, I'm a positive one) because of how my brain works. I really can't help it. Even though my skeptical mind tells me that negative atheism is the most skeptical viewpoint, I can't help but be a positive atheist. Listening to and reading what a lot of theists have to say about their theism and doubts, I'm convinced that they are theists because of the way they think, which is different from me. I don't think they could become atheists any easier than I could bring myself to believe in fairies. Can you choose to believe in fairies?
What makes someone a skeptic is what they accept as facts and what they want pushed in the social arena, even if it conflicts with their personal beliefs. That is how there are pro-choice Catholics. That is how there are religious politicians who abide by the codes of a secular government.
I think beliefs are partially formed intellectually, but also partially emotionally. And while we can control how we react to our emotions, we can't help feeling them. So maybe a metaphor would help illustrate the point I'm getting across. I can't help being repulsed by this one woman I went to school with. There is no logical or apparently reason for despising her. We actually share a great number of interests, she's friends with my friends, and so my intellectual mind says she's a swell person and we should be friends. But I can't stand her. I can't choose to like this person. But what I can do is choose to be civil to her in social situations. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/04/2007 05:27:23 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2007 : 06:47:30 [Permalink]
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Hey I feel you on this, I have no issues with skeptics who cant drop God. There are powerful emotions involved and years of intense feelings which cant just be turned off by many people.
I for one despise Jodie Foster, who just happens to look like a girlfriend of my old buddy. She was a succubus-like girlfiend and I have hated Jodie Foster ever since. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2007 : 07:49:57 [Permalink]
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So how, marf, did I stop being a woo-woo believer? How does anyone switch from being religious to being an atheist (or vice versa)?
I also think you're selling short the maleability of the brain. People learn new skills and change their minds all the time. Many things in this world are "acquired tastes," meaning that it takes a whole bunch of time and exposure before you'll enjoy it, including lots of foods and activities. Damage to the brain can cause wholesale changes in personality.
I certainly won't fault you for having better things to do with your time than retrain your brain to like some woman or switch to passive atheism, but I think your "I really can't help it" isn't precisely the case.
Personally, I've got little patience for watching sports, especially on TV. I don't "grok" why people get so worked up over it. But I have little doubt that given the time and effort, I could figure it out, get into it, and be one of those people screaming at the TV during the Superbowl or World Cup. At least, I see no reason why it can't happen. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2007 : 18:13:42 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: quote:
So how, marf, did I stop being a woo-woo believer? How does anyone switch from being religious to being an atheist (or vice versa)?
I never said that nobody ever changes. My beliefs, and most peoples', change - even if only slightly - over time as they mature and are exposed to new information. I'm just pointing out that how individuals process new information and develop their own interpretations and systems of ethics is very personal and unique to them, based on their own mind, culture, experiences, and such. I believe that if sufficiently motivated to change, most people can train themselves out of one way of thinking and into another. But there has to be a motivation. There has to be some sort of internal or external conflict putting pressure on a person to do so. Many of my theistic friends who I also consider to be good skeptics and more rational than the average person gain a great deal of psychological peace, comfort, and moral and intellectual enlightenment from their belief systems. They see how their own personal theism helps them be a better, more compassionate, more fullfilled individual. They have no motivation to become atheistic, and have much motivation to keep their religious faith. Thus, they have the same motivation to become atheists as I have for developing faith in fairies. Theism is right for them. I believe it is right for someone people even though it is not right for me, and I don't see how they are any less skeptical for going with that path.
To me, the most irrational aspect of fundamentalism is that it demands that everyone believe what they believe. It demands that laws conform to their own personal beliefs even though there is no objective evidence for them. And it flies in the face of all human history which says that people just aren't going to all believe in the same things. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/04/2007 18:15:17 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2007 : 18:42:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
I believe that if sufficiently motivated to change, most people can train themselves out of one way of thinking and into another. But there has to be a motivation. There has to be some sort of internal or external conflict putting pressure on a person to do so.
Exactly, so put pressure on them.
quote:
Theism is right for them. I believe it is right for someone people even though it is not right for me, and I don't see how they are any less skeptical for going with that path.
You don't see how someone who believes in a supernatural entity is any less skeptical than one who does not? Are you being serious?
quote:
To me, the most irrational aspect of fundamentalism is that it demands that everyone believe what they believe. It demands that laws conform to their own personal beliefs even though there is no objective evidence for them.
Yes, that is irrational--that they hold beliefs despite there being no objective evidence for them.
But I'm getting pretty sick of people claiming that simply trying to spread a message--any message--is the same evangelizing. It isn't. It's called education. And telling people that there is a correct, rational way to think about these issues is not simply the flip side of ignorant fundamentalism.
People have a right to hold their beliefs, but I don't understand why you're of the opinion that personal beliefs should not be challenged. Skepticism is of no value if it isn't applied to anything.
quote:
And it flies in the face of all human history which says that people just aren't going to all believe in the same things.
So we should just roll over and give up, right?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/04/2007 18:43:53 |
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What is a skeptic?
