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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 05/24/2007 : 19:39:36 [Permalink]
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What the hell does that mean? Think about what you are saying for just one minute - human beings are social creatures. We cannot survive entirely on our own, nor does any single human being rely entirely on themselves for a complete sense of identity and self worth. That is simply not in our nature. Given that simple reality, even in an anarchist state, there will exist social norms, real consequences for breaking them, acceptable and unacceptable social and family structures, division of labor and a change in concepts of identity and sense of worth that come along with those divisions. It is so fucking arbitrary to say that a form of society which involves a formal government (or even more arbitrary, that some aspects of formal government) are now preventing mankind from being "left to his own devices". America is not North Korea. People have a hell of a lot more choices and freedom here than in most indigenous societies where there is no formal government but very strict social norms and social consequences for breaking those norms.
Stop living in la la land and realize that life ain't all that simple.
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I agree with much of what you are saying, so obviously my statement was not succinct, for this I apologize. The point which I am trying to make is that man; most of the time, without the interference of other men (i.e. law) will choose to make equitable decisions with concern for the community surrounding him. The Law creates a feeling of impunity from the natural consideration of fellow man. Laws are certainly needed to resolve arguments and to set standards in society, but I will always contend that less is better. I do not believe I have the right to force you to live by my standards and I hope that others do not decide by which standards I should live.
Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus
I disagree with Cicero, as I believe for one to be free the law must be our slave.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 22:08:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
No Dave I have never attended college, if fact I never graduated high school. |
That explains quite a lot...
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Others have already jumped on you, Mab, but allow me to jump from a differet angle than marf and Kil...
My high school didn't teach me a damn thing about how to see through the nonsense that comes with the conspiracy theories that JdG has been offering. And I understand that the sorts of courses that, for example, Robert Carroll teaches in college regarding critical thought are electives (I've never been to college, either, so I don't precisely know). So I doubt that finishing high school and/or going to college would have helped JdG out of the problems he has. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 04:49:31 [Permalink]
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Jerome wrote: It will take approximately 11 years for family two to become equal in lifetime earning to family one.
From the ages of 36 years to 60 years family two will earn $396,000 more than family one.
Over a lifetime of work $396,000 equals $9,900 per year or $825 per month or $191.86 per week or $4.80 per hour assuming a forty hour work week.
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Considering that the vast majority of people will live for more than 11 years after adolescence, this all still supports my argument. The difference you describe isn't exactly chump change!
The point which I am trying to make is that man; most of the time, without the interference of other men (i.e. law) will choose to make equitable decisions with concern for the community surrounding him. The Law creates a feeling of impunity from the natural consideration of fellow man. Laws are certainly needed to resolve arguments and to set standards in society, but I will always contend that less is better. I do not believe I have the right to force you to live by my standards and I hope that others do not decide by which standards I should live.
Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus
I disagree with Cicero, as I believe for one to be free the law must be our slave. |
The first problem is that you are defining “interference of other men” as only law. Most interference of other men does not come in the form of formal law, it comes in the form of social pressure to conform to social norms, and those pressures are much more frequent interference than formal law and they have just as dramatic consequences as formal law.
The second problem is that we have plenty of examples of this being untrue. For example, Utah has anti-truancy laws, but no enforcement of them. So if I kid drops out of school, there are no consequences. The rise of whole communities of fanatic Mormon religious cults which marry off 13-year-old girls to middle age men and regularly expel poor, uneducated teenage boys is partially a result of zero intervention when these boys and girls left the public school systems.
The kids I teach here in Philly are the opposite story. They skip school 20 times, and the city gets involved. There are real consequences for non-compliance. As a result, these kids have caring mentors in their lives, often learn new skills in after school and summer programs, as well as get tutoring, engage in healthy recreational activities such as sports, and a sense of community. Many of them even get paying part time jobs through these programs. This has been statistically shown to reduce crime, which is no surprise considering that most inner city crime is committed by youth.
We are straying away from the topic at hand. You have yet to back up your claim that there is an intention by some authorities (who?) to use public schooling to dumb down American children. You have also failed to provide any kind of specific and persuasive argument that not having public schooling is better for society than having public schooling.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 13:13:55 [Permalink]
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I stand corrected.
His unfinished high school education does explain his poor spelling, though I cannot discount dyslexia. He never mentioned dyslexia though.
I guess I'm just frustrated that we seem to make no progress with Jerome. No matter how we try, he chose to remain oblivious to the scientific method and never let logical fallacies stand in his way of making assumptions.
Remind me to stay away from his threads from now on, or I'll end up with a relapse of my ulcer. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 20:01:34 [Permalink]
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There is a physiological experiment done in which a room full of twenty people are asked which is the longest stick. Only one person is not aware of the experiment. All of the people state that the middle length stick is the longest. After a short time the person who is not in on it decides also that the middle stick is the longest.
I feel like this is that experiment.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2007 : 07:21:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
There is a physiological experiment done in which a room full of twenty people are asked which is the longest stick. Only one person is not aware of the experiment. All of the people state that the middle length stick is the longest. After a short time the person who is not in on it decides also that the middle stick is the longest.
I feel like this is that experiment.
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The problem is, you are the one holding the middle stick and claiming it's the longest. And the reason you are alone is because your claim has no merit. Furthermore, the reason you feel you are in the above thought experiment is another indication of your preference for conspiracy over much more mundane possibilities.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2007 : 08:56:36 [Permalink]
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Now that we have established current level of American adult literacy produced by for the most part public government education is incredibly low. I shall not show past American literacy levels were incredibly high, showing a dramatic change in literacy levels since the advent of compulsory schooling.
1640 "The literacy rate in colonial New England at this time has been estimated at about 60 percent for adult males, with a figure of about half that for women. It was somewhat less in the southern colonies—50 percent for males and 25 percent for females"
http://tinyurl.com/32yaqo
"In 1750 nearly 90 percent of New England women (and virtually all men) could read and write"
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_1741502192_2/Colonial_America.html
"By the time of the American Revolution, it was around 90 percent, certainly the highest on earth."
http://east_west_dialogue.tripod.com/american_system/id14.htm
Journal of Education of January 1828 gave this account:
"Our population is 12,000,000, for the education of which, we have 50
colleges, besides several times the number of well endowed and flourishing
academies leaving primary schools out of the account. For meeting the
intellectual wants of this 12,000,000, we have about 600 newspapers and
periodical journals. There is no country, (it is often said), where the
means of intelligence are so generally enjoyed by all ranks and where
knowledge is so generally diffused among the lower orders of the community, as in our own."
http://tinyurl.com/3c37zn
We have now established American literacy was in the past at exceptional levels and currently at dismal levels. Our next task is to discover why would the designers of compulsory public education desire theses results.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2007 : 10:08:18 [Permalink]
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Ricky, if one redefines literacy you can come up with 99.9%. After reading this would still contend the American literacry is 99.9%?
http://tinyurl.com/2tb5or
Twenty-one to 23 percent -- or some 40 to 44 million of the 191 million adults in this country -- demonstrated skills in the lowest level of prose, document, and quantitative proficiencies (Level 1).
this level performed simple, routine tasks involving brief and uncomplicated texts and documents. For example, they were able to total an entry on a deposit slip, locate the time or place of a meeting on a form, and identify a piece of specific information in a brief news article.
Some 25 to 28 percent of the respondents, representing about 50 million adults nationwide, demonstrated skills in the next higher level of proficiency (Level 2)
They were generally able to locate information in text, to make low-level inferences using printed materials, and to integrate easily identifiable pieces of information. Further, they demonstrated the ability to perform quantitative tasks that involve a single operation where the numbers are either stated or can be easily found in text. For example, adults in this level were able to calculate the total cost of a purchase or determine the difference in price between two items. They could also locate a particular intersection on a street map and enter background information on a simple form.
Nearly one-third of the survey participants, or about 61 million adults nationwide, demonstrated performance in Level 3
were able to integrate information from relatively long or dense text or from documents. Those in the third level on the quantitative scale were able to determine the appropriate arithmetic operation based on information contained in the directive, and to identify the quantities needed to perform that operation.
Levels 1, 2, and 3 would be skills that should have been taught in elementary school.
Approximately 155 million adults out of 191 million do not have or are at the skill that should be learned by the age of 10 years. |
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2007 : 13:30:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
There is a physiological experiment done in which a room full of twenty people are asked which is the longest stick. Only one person is not aware of the experiment. All of the people state that the middle length stick is the longest. After a short time the person who is not in on it decides also that the middle stick is the longest.
I feel like this is that experiment.
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Do you know that experiment was about?
Not everyone fold under peer pressure. But this forum isn't a such an experiment. We use a scale to measure the sticks here at SFN.
Edited to add:
Damn, I forgot about my ulcer. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 05/26/2007 13:32:05 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2007 : 16:02:59 [Permalink]
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literate:
1 a : EDUCATED, CULTURED b : able to read and write
2 a : versed in literature or creative writing : LITERARY b : LUCID, POLISHED <a literate essay> c : having knowledge or competence
educate:
1 a : to provide schooling for <chose to educate their children at home> b : to train by formal instruction and supervised practice especially in a skill, trade, or profession
2 a : to develop mentally, morally, or aesthetically especially by instruction b : to provide with information : INFORM <educating themselves about changes in the industry>
3 : to persuade or condition to feel, believe, or act in a desired way
cultivate:
2 a : to foster the growth of <cultivate vegetables> b : CULTURE 2a c : to improve by labor, care, or study : REFINE
refine:
1 : to become pure or perfected
2 : to make improvement by introducing subtleties or distinctions
This is the point I am making with the argument:
Literate does not mean to simply read and write; it is refined knowledge of subtleties and distinctions that is cultivated through labor, care, and study developing the mental ability to express a knowledge and competence of the ability to read and write.
Dave please do not accuse me of plagiarizing the dictionary again. That had to be the funniest accusation yet.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2007 : 17:30:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Literate does not mean to simply read and write; it is refined knowledge of subtleties and distinctions that is cultivated through labor, care, and study developing the mental ability to express a knowledge and competence of the ability to read and write. |
Yes, if you redefine "literacy" you can get numbers as low as zero percent, I'm sure. But it's just another indication that you're nothing more than a contrarian whose hobby here is moving the goalposts, and that you have no interest in rational discourse.| Dave please do not accuse me of plagiarizing the dictionary again. That had to be the funniest accusation yet. |
Did you, or did you not, post a quote from the dictionary without stating that it was a quote from the dictionary or providing a reference? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Compulsory Government Education
Topic Locked
