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JEROME DA GNOME
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2418 Posts |
 Posted - 05/26/2007 : 18:05:44 [Permalink]
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Dave, I am not moving goalposts in the sense of your implication, I am responding to questions and comments from other members. When someone redefines the question to my arguments or commentary then yes the goal posts are moved, but to another field of play. This does not change the goal of the initial coin toss; which has yet to be completed. In fact this is generally how discussions work.
Dave I chose to define literacy using the dictionary; its a fabulous tool for determining what words accurately mean, as such I did not redefine anything. This expanded the knowledge of Ricky who asked about the definition of literacy, and helps further the discussion.
Keep in mind we are talking about the education provided through public education which does not foster many of the defining terms of literacy.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2007 : 21:38:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dave, I am not moving goalposts in the sense of your implication, I am responding to questions and comments from other members. When someone redefines the question to my arguments or commentary then yes the goal posts are moved, but to another field of play. This does not change the goal of the initial coin toss; which has yet to be completed. In fact this is generally how discussions work. |
You've had a horrible life, then, if everyone you've interacted with has behaved as poorly as you have.| Dave I chose to define literacy using the dictionary; its a fabulous tool for determining what words accurately mean, as such I did not redefine anything. This expanded the knowledge of Ricky who asked about the definition of literacy, and helps further the discussion. |
And the report you tout says, in no uncertain terms,The National Adult Literacy Survey is based on a different definition of literacy, and therefore follows a different approach to measuring it. The definition they use is clearly not one of the dictionary definitions, because the dictionary doesn't describe different "levels" of literacy.| Keep in mind we are talking about the education provided through public education which does not foster many of the defining terms of literacy. |
A definition completely irrelevant to the report you abuse to dishonestly support your claims. Let's read some more from that article, shall we?Many factors help to explain why so many adults demonstrated English literacy skills in the lowest proficiency level defined (Level 1). Twenty-five percent of the respondents who performed in this level were immigrants who may have been just learning to speak English. Nearly two-thirds of those in Level 1 (62 percent) had terminated their education before completing high school. A third were age 65 or older, and 26 percent had physical, mental, or health conditions that kept them from participating fully in work, school, housework, or other activities. Nineteen percent of the respondents in Level 1 reported having visual difficulties that affect their ability to read print. If 62% are illiterate because they're drop-outs, then it's not the fault of some sinister cabal whose goal in public education is to churn out automatons. Yet that is the exact thing you want us to believe: that these people are illiterate because of the public education they didn't have and/or finish. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 08:56:07 [Permalink]
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Dave what you are engaging in is called New Think, it is the training of the mind to not allow thought about the whole picture, only small snipits thus preventing one from developing a full understanding of any topic.
The whole picture represents a lack of comprehensive literacy in current America in contrast to American literacy in the past, prior to public schooling.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 09:04:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dave what you are engaging in is called New Think, it is the training of the mind to not allow thought about the whole picture, only small snipits thus preventing one from developing a full understanding of any topic. |
And you've presented a wonderful example of an actual ad hominem argument. Rather than address any of the points I made, you simply accuse me personally of something and imply that it makes me wrong.| The whole picture represents a lack of comprehensive literacy in current America in contrast to American literacy in the past, prior to public schooling. |
Except that isn't your point, never was your point, and ignores the points I and others have made. "Comprehensive literacy" and "criticial thought" are not synonyms. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 09:54:51 [Permalink]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking
"Critical thinking consists of the mental process of analyzing or evaluating information, particularly statements or propositions that people have offered as true. It includes a process of reflecting upon the meaning of statements, examining the offered evidence and reasoning, and forming judgments about the facts."
Comprehensive: covering completely or broadly
Literacy: refined knowledge of subtleties and distinctions that is cultivated through labor, care, and study developing the mental ability to express a knowledge and competence of the ability to read and write.
Dave it looks like comprehensive literacy is an excellent training tool for critical thinking; a precursor. To my point schools do not teach comprehensive literacy and therefore restrict the ability to learn critical thinking.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 12:19:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking
"Critical thinking consists of the mental process of analyzing or evaluating information, particularly statements or propositions that people have offered as true. It includes a process of reflecting upon the meaning of statements, examining the offered evidence and reasoning, and forming judgments about the facts."
Comprehensive: covering completely or broadly
Literacy: refined knowledge of subtleties and distinctions that is cultivated through labor, care, and study developing the mental ability to express a knowledge and competence of the ability to read and write.
Dave it looks like comprehensive literacy is an excellent training tool for critical thinking; a precursor. To my point schools do not teach comprehensive literacy and therefore restrict the ability to learn critical thinking. |
Then why are so many scientists, authors and philosophers not critical thinkers? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 16:36:12 [Permalink]
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Rickey, this is a survey of adults (not population) in 1992 which was 191 million. I added the people in levels 1,2, and 3 to derive the number 155 million.
http://tinyurl.com/2tb5or
level 3 literacy according to the survey
"were able to integrate information from relatively long or dense text or from documents. Those in the third level on the quantitative scale were able to determine the appropriate arithmetic operation based on information contained in the directive, and to identify the quantities needed to perform that operation."
These abilities can be and should be mastered by the age of ten.
The reason so many need remedial (remedy) classes when going to college is that they are lacking in the basic thinking skills needed to understand the next level.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 17:50:49 [Permalink]
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"Eighteen to 21 percent of the respondents, or 34 to 40 million adults, performed in the two highest levels of prose, document, and quantitative literacy (Levels 4 and 5). These adults demonstrated proficiencies associated with the most challenging tasks in this assessment, many of which involved long and complex documents and text passages."
As far as the math is concerned for level 3, it looks to be a simple word math problem. (john has 2 apples , sally has 3 apples, how many do they have together)
As far as the reading is concerned for level 3, it looks to be the ability to relate what one has read. (this is not understanding only finding the base action)
There are no examples in the url only descriptions, from the descriptions we should be able to discern the meaning.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2007 : 21:32:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
There are no examples in the url only descriptions, from the descriptions we should be able to discern the meaning. |
From the descriptions, you've managed to come up with "age 10" in a survey of adults? You've got a tremendous ability to read the minds of authors of a 15-year-old study. Or, you've simply fabricated the number based upon your own biases and presumptions. The latter seems to be the more-likely scenario. You certainly haven't brought any evidence to support your conclusion. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2007 : 07:32:41 [Permalink]
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Ricky, I used my literacy skills and read the descriptions to determine probable examples. The sentence you quoted certainly should be able to be read, understood, and related by a 10 year old of average intelligence.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2007 : 07:58:04 [Permalink]
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Thanks Dave, this survey describes literacy as the ability to read news papers, brochures, job application, train schedules, food labels, balance a checkbook, figuring a tip.
This is great, if you can find the price of a sandwich on a menu you have average literacy. Reading a table of contents in a magazine is average.
54.5% according to this survey are at or below this average level. This description of literacy is below the level of what an average ten year old has the ability to learn.
So Dave, 54.5% of American adults can only read a menu and table of contents in a magazine; will you now admit American literacy is ridiculously low.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Compulsory Government Education
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