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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 05/30/2007 : 18:32:12 [Permalink]
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Marfknox, both you and Cune agreed with the evidence I presented in relation to the state of literacy in America today. Your disagreements at that point were the causes. Why now do you choose to disagree with the evidence?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 18:43:06 [Permalink]
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Dave said: "I agree such a child would have been robbed, by language, or dropping out, or any of a number of other reasons. But that's not the point: you brought the ten-year-old figure into the discussion, and refuse to support it as relevant to adult literacy which you've defined differently than the authors of the report"
If you admit they should have been able to do have these literacy skills at 10 years of age; they should be able to do it as an adult.
What evidence do you need that proves a literacy skill learned at 10 years would still be in possession as an adult.
Dave over 50% of the adults surveyed could only these literacy tasks, and nothing more. These skills you acknowledged should be able to be performed by a 10 year old. That means according to you they were "robbed". Do you think over 50% of the American population has dropped out of school?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 03:23:14 [Permalink]
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Jerome wrote: | Marfknox, both you and Cune agreed with the evidence I presented in relation to the state of literacy in America today. Your disagreements at that point were the causes. Why now do you choose to disagree with the evidence? |
What!? I have not disputed the facts presented in the articles that you linked to, but I have contended your claim (based on nothing in those articles) that literacy in America is worse today than it was in the mid-1800's. The only article that had clear qualifiers and ranking for literacy was the recent report. The other two were extremely general and didn't make it clear what "literate" meant, although they both implied several times that it simply meant the ability to read and write, which is improved today over what it was in the mid-1800's. The same articles you linked to also presented evidence that the best educated in America previous to our national compulsory public schools were children in New England who went to local cumpulsary public schools. The same articles you linked to also presented evidence that the least literate of today are so NOT because of attending US public schools, but rather, because they are not native English speakers, have dropped out of school, are elderly, or handicapped.
What evidence have you presented that agrees with your premise in this discussion? Nothing. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 11:18:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
If you admit they should have been able to do have these literacy skills at 10 years of age; they should be able to do it as an adult. |
Not if they dropped out or they've had a massive heard injury. Besides, more than 75% of the people are at or above basic literacy: they mostly can do those things. You just moved the goalposts to a different location so you could add numbers together and make things look worse.| What evidence do you need that proves a literacy skill learned at 10 years would still be in possession as an adult. |
None, because the data show that for the most part, they are.| Dave over 50% of the adults surveyed could only these literacy tasks, and nothing more. |
That is false, but you refuse to discuss it.| These skills you acknowledged should be able to be performed by a 10 year old. That means according to you they were "robbed". Do you think over 50% of the American population has dropped out of school? |
No, you're just trolling some more.
[/quote] |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
 Posted - 05/31/2007 : 14:06:37 [Permalink]
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JEROME DA GNOME, it would be really great if you respond to my questions posted here and here.
Did you ignore the posts, did you silently concede the points I had, or did you just not understand them?
I would appreciate answers to my questions, it may help resolve some misunderstandings among all of us participants.
If you need, I will be more than happy to rephrase or clarify anything I have written (just as I will ask you for clarification below). Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
If you admit they should have been able to do have these literacy skills at 10 years of age; they should be able to do it as an adult.
What evidence do you need that proves a literacy skill learned at 10 years would still be in possession as an adult.
Dave over 50% of the adults surveyed could only these literacy tasks, and nothing more. These skills you acknowledged should be able to be performed by a 10 year old. That means according to you they were "robbed". Do you think over 50% of the American population has dropped out of school? |
emphasis added -- B10
I am having trouble understanding your bolded phrase above. Please clarify. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 20:18:10 [Permalink]
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Boron to answer your first question, my point originally included the fact that cogs were being created; and if only narrow fields of learning are taught this is to the point.
Remedial is a remedy for the lack of knowledge and ability garnered from previous schooling. If previous schooling did the job properly one would not need a remedy.
Websters dictionary is what I generally use.
http://tinyurl.com/3x78gx
This is the USA Today article, I can not find the rest without paying and can not find the study referred to. It is a perceived problem if state lawmakers are attempting to remedy it.
Boron asked: "if somebody has trouble reading, writing, and doing math, do you honestly believe they can't think properly?"
Not always, but those skills teach one to think; thus through the mastery of those skills one masters thought.
Boron said "manipulating numbers is not (for the most part) thinking"
O.K. then what is it?
The next questions you asked seemed to show that you believe that imparting knowledge is the same as exploring thought. I disagree completely.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 20:30:12 [Permalink]
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Boron, so whats the purpose of teaching math if I am wrong?
I do not feel slighted by the public school system. I am only spelling out what it is. You seem to have an attachment, as your defense if valiant.
Boron said: "why do you think I was implying either book gave a predetermined conclusion?"
You implied the teaching of predetermined conclusions in the newer books when you contrasted them with older books that " provide no assistance on drawing accurate conclusions from the data"
I have answered all of your questions I believe.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 20:36:26 [Permalink]
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Boron, I gave examples from the survey of tasks defined as average. Dave agreed that theses tasks should be able to be performed by 10 year olds.
Dave then did not understand that if as a 10 year old one can do these tasks than as adults they should also be able to do these tasks.
Meaning that if as adults they can not do these tasks they were not taught as 10 year olds.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 08:30:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Boron to answer your first question, my point originally included the fact that cogs were being created; and if only narrow fields of learning are taught this is to the point. |
I accept your (veiled) admission of poor choice phrasing. If your point "included" the main area on which you are focusing, why did you not make it your main point? | Remedial is a remedy for the lack of knowledge and ability garnered from previous schooling. If previous schooling did the job properly one would not need a remedy. |
You may be right here, but your assumption that a remedy is necessary is still in dispute.| Websters dictionary is what I generally use. |
Thank you. We would appreciate a reference/source for any quotes (even from dictionaries) in the future. http://tinyurl.com/3x78gx
This is the USA Today article, I can not find the rest without paying and can not find the study referred to. |
I completely understand your unwillingness to pay to reference the details of particular studies. I, too, have no desire to do so. Unfortunately, that leaves us in a stalemate on this point. I doubt the veracity of your claim. You are unable to provide sufficient evidence. | It is a perceived problem if state lawmakers are attempting to remedy it. |
Are you implying that all lawmakers' perceived problems are valid? There is a fairly long thread in which you are contesting the validity of another problem lawmakers are attempting to remedy. Boron asked: "if somebody has trouble reading, writing, and doing math, do you honestly believe they can't think properly?"
Not always, but those skills teach one to think; thus through the mastery of those skills one masters thought. |
For the most part, I agree with you here. Boron said "manipulating numbers is not (for the most part) thinking"
O.K. then what is it? |
Calculating. Are you suggesting that calculators think? | The next questions you asked seemed to show that you believe that imparting knowledge is the same as exploring thought. I disagree completely. |
You seem to be misunderstanding the questions. Here is the one (I think) you are misunderstanding:< |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 08:46:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Boron, I gave examples from the survey of tasks defined as average. Dave agreed that theses tasks should be able to be performed by 10 year olds.
Dave then did not understand that if as a 10 year old one can do these tasks than as adults they should also be able to do these tasks.
Meaning that if as adults they can not do these tasks they were not taught as 10 year olds. |
Can you name the capitol cities of every state in the US? Can you name every country in Africa? Most 10-year-old children in the US can. Knowledge, when not used, decays over time.
Dave W. seems to have no trouble understanding your point; you just happen to be wrong. He was questioning your underlying assumption that adults cannot perform these tasks.
Besides, what does the magical age of 10 have to do with anything? Are you arguing that adult literacy has declined, or are you arguing that childhood literacy has declined? Are you trying to argue both? You realize that literacy among 10-year-old children cannot be compared to literacy among adults without some correlating evidence, right? |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 08:53:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I do not feel slighted by the public school system. I am only spelling out what it is. You seem to have an attachment, as your defense if valiant. |
Emphasis added -- B10
I didn't catch this one until just now, but that is an ad hominem. You may notice I have not made such comments about you; I would appreciate the same courtesy in return. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 11:00:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dave agreed that theses tasks should be able to be performed by 10 year olds.
Dave then did not understand that if as a 10 year old one can do these tasks than as adults they should also be able to do these tasks.
Meaning that if as adults they can not do these tasks they were not taught as 10 year olds. |
Your conclusion doesn't follow, unless you add in the extra false premise that knowledge, once learned, is never forgotten. In that case your conclusion would follow logically, but your argument would be invalid.
But of course, you're refusing to comment futher on your obvious misrepresentation of the report, and your meaingless 54.5% figure. Instead, you'd prefer to make ad hominem arguments. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 18:31:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Boron10
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I do not feel slighted by the public school system. I am only spelling out what it is. You seem to have an attachment, as your defense if valiant. |
Emphasis added -- B10
I didn't catch this one until just now, but that is an ad hominem. You may notice I have not made such comments about you; I would appreciate the same courtesy in return.
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Glad you caught that. You asked if I had been slighted; I asked if you had attachment.
That would be tit of tat.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 18:55:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Boron10
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Boron, I gave examples from the survey of tasks defined as average. Dave agreed that theses tasks should be able to be performed by 10 year olds.
Dave then did not understand that if as a 10 year old one can do these tasks than as adults they should also be able to do these tasks.
Meaning that if as adults they can not do these tasks they were not taught as 10 year olds. |
Can you name the capitol cities of every state in the US? Can you name every country in Africa? Most 10-year-old children in the US can. Knowledge, when not used, decays over time.
Dave W. seems to have no trouble understanding your point; you just happen to be wrong. He was questioning your underlying assumption that adults cannot perform these tasks.
Besides, what does the magical age of 10 have to do with anything? Are you arguing that adult literacy has declined, or are you arguing that childhood literacy has declined? Are you trying to argue both? You realize that literacy among 10-year-old children cannot be compared to literacy among adults without some correlating evidence, right?
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These are some of the tasks described as average/basic level of literacy:
Calculate the weekly wage based on the hourly wage.
Locate two numbers on a graph and find the difference.
Calculate the cost of a sandwich and salad from menu.
Reading a table of contents in magazine.
Find a table in an almanac.
Given values, find BMI on graph.
This is not forgettable knowledge. Do you believe this to be an acceptable level of adult literacy?
"Besides, what does the magical age of 10 have to do with anything?"
---It was agreed that 10 year old should be able to do theses tasks.
"Are you arguing that adult literacy has declined, or are you arguing that childhood literacy has declined?"
---Yes, both.
"You realize that literacy among 10-year-old children cannot be compared to literacy among adults without some correlating evidence, right?"
---I am comparing the agreed expectation that a 10 year old could do these tasks with the performance of the adults in the survey.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 20:53:48 [Permalink]
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Jerome wrote: | This is not forgettable knowledge. Do you believe this to be an acceptable level of adult literacy? |
Jerome, whether we agree or not that this is an acceptable level of adult literacy is irrelevant if you cannot produce evidence that people had better literacy based on this definition previous to public schooling. Even if you can prove - using this measurement - that the USA has a low literacy level, you have not proven that today's level of literacy is lower than it was in the mid 1800's. So if you can't do that, what is your point anymore? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Compulsory Government Education
Topic Locked
