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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 05/21/2007 : 01:09:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Boron10
Originally posted by beskeptigal
George WA chopped down a Cherry tree, Lincoln walked miles in the snow to return a penny, history of Columbus is whitewashed, what was in your history books about Am Indians, Custer, etc, what did you learn about the last 100 years of US interference in Chile, Argentina, the Middle East etc etc etc.
Do you honestly think kids get the real history of this country in primary school? |
beskeptigal, do you honestly think kids are taught this garbage in primary school?
Though I did hear these stories when I was a child, they were presented as just that: stories. No attempt was made to make them seem like anything other than Aesopean fables.
I suppose for me, going to school in the '80s, I had a different perspective than my parent's generation. I was taught about many of the conquistadors' atrocities, about the plight of the Native Americans, and many others. I was even encouraged to read Howard Zinn's People's History of the United States! For those who haven't read it, we should discuss it in the Book Reviews forum.
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Try this one then let me know if you were taught real history.
Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong
I see people who bought Zinn's book also bought this one. I haven't read Zinn. Loewen takes a critical look at the standard history text books themselves and points out some of the reasons why you get the America is mostly good versions. Too many people want their "political correctness" issue and textbooks are not chosen which special interest groups are going to object to. It has a major influence on the publishers because they publish what the school districts buy. Then the schools that might have chosen different books have nothing but the over-generalized versions to pick from.
Loewen is a college professor who said he has to re-teach his students because they learn so little, or they get inaccurate history versions in primary school.
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 05/21/2007 01:14:42 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 16:48:27 [Permalink]
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It seems as if quotes from the perpetrators of public schooling are needed to show my original statement fact.
www.aacu.org/liberaleducation/le-wi04/le-wi04presidentsmessage.cfm
Woodrow Wilson
"We want one class of persons to have a liberal education and we want another class of persons, a very much larger class of necessity, to forgo the privileges of a liberal education."
The General Education Board (GEB), established by John D. Rockefeller, Sr., was chartered in 1902.
www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis16.htm
"The word, "moulded," is instructive because in THE WORLD'S WORK (August 1912), one reads "The Country School of Tomorrow" by GEB chairman Frederick Gates, declaring: "In our dreams, we have limitless resources, and the people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands." "
1918 NEA Cardinal Pricipals
www.wier.ca/~%20daniel_schugurensky/assignment1/1918cardinal.html
"reading, writing, arithmetical computations"
"only so much theory should be taught at any one time as will show results in practice."
"social studies should deal with the home as a fundamental social institution and clarify its relation to the wider interests"
"during this period that they are most likely to form their ideals of life's duties and responsibilities."
"Vocational education should aim to develop an appreciation of the significance of the vocation to the community. and a clear conception of right relations between the members of the chosen vocation, between different vocational groups, between employer and employee, and between producer and consumer. These aspects of vocational education, heretofore neglected, demand emphatic attention."
"A many-sided interest in the welfare of the communities to which one belongs; loyalty to ideals of civic righteousness; practical knowledge of social agencies and institutions; good judgment as to means and methods that will promote one social end without defeating others; and as putting all these into effect, habits of cordial cooperation in social undertakings."
"The pupil should feel that he will be responsible, in cooperation with others, for keeping the Nation true to the best inherited conceptions of democracy, and he should also realize that democracy itself is an ideal to be wrought out by his own and succeeding generations."
"Our pupils should learn that each nation, at least potentially, has something of worth to contribute to civilization and that humanity would be incomplete without that contribution."
"Such a study of dissimilar contributions in the light of the ideal of human brotherhood should help to establish a genuine internationalism, free from sentimentality, founded on fact, and actually operative in the affairs of nations."
"One of the surest ways in which to prepare pupils worthily to utilize leisure in adult life is by guiding and directing their use of leisure in youth."
"Specific consideration is given to the moral values to be obtained from the organization of the school and the subjects of study in the report of this commission entitled “Moral Values in Secondary Education.”
I have many more quotes but I found the principals outlined by the NEA most instructive.
The NEA in 1918 outlines a program to deemphasize critical thinking, replacing it with reading, writing, and math by rote.
It also sets to establish a control that starts with defining social place and how your place interacts with others social strata.
It helps to move you to a vocation, always with the community in prominence.
It establishes the theory of relativism; all societies have equal value.
It teaches one how to spend free time.
Also, morals are to be taught.
If anyone can find another aspect of humanity that is not being controlled and molded with this outline let me know.
This very important outline by the NEA absolutely supports my initial statement:
Compulsory government education has the intentio |
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 17:08:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
This very important outline by the NEA absolutely supports my initial statement:
Compulsory government education has the intention of creating passive non-critical thinking cogs for society in which they are easily manipulated and controlled. |
What a load of crap!! The only way you can read the document you linked and come to that conclusion, JdG, is if you believed in the conclusion a priori. For instance, you cherry-pick the statement | One of the surest ways in which to prepare pupils worthily to utilize leisure in adult life is by guiding and directing their use of leisure in youth. |
and suggest that this is somehow "teaches one how to spend free time." But any clear reading of that section shows that they are simply arguing that children should have an appreciation for the arts. The first paragraph of the section states:| Education should equip the individual to secure from his leisure the recreation of body, mind, and spirit, and the enrichment and enlargement of his personality. This objective calls for the ability to utilize the common means of enjoyment, such as music, art, literature, drama, and social intercourse, together with the fostering in each individual of one or more special vocational interests. |
To read into that some notion of 'government control' with the aim of creating a passively-thinking population is completely paranoid.
Indeed, you argue that "the NEA in 1918 outlines a program to deemphasize critical thinking, replacing it with reading, writing, and math by rote." But no sane person can read this document and think that "critical thinking" is deemphasized.
Finally, note that the document is clearly meant to address life in 1918. It suggests that for most women life after high schools sees "home making [as] their lifelong occupation." The was probably an accurate reflection of 1918 life, but no longer applies. In fact, given how rare it was for a person to go to college in 1918, the entire emphasis of the document no longer applies.
Simply put, not only are you inserting paranoid readings into this document, you're also failing to consider the time in which it was drawn up.
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 17:19:48 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist---You must read the context of the entire document.
You must also read the document in the context of the other quotes provided.
What does Rockefellers organization (The General Education Board) mean when it states:
"In our dreams, we have limitless resources, and the people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands."
Whats does Wilson mean when he says:
"We want one class of persons to have a liberal education and we want another class of persons, a very much larger class of necessity, to forgo the privileges of a liberal education."
Look at the totality of the argument, not a single point with which you can find ambiguity .
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 17:21:50 [Permalink]
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Jerome continued his obtuse ranting with: | They (children) are less the property of the state. |
Agreed. And exactly how does the US government treat children as property? So far you've done nothing except toss around some vague accusation that the American public school system is intentionally training children to be poor critical thinkers and eventually complacent workers. You have supported this accusation with nothing. Who, for instance, are the people planning, driving, and executing this elaborate conspiracy? How are they getting it past diverse school boards all over the nation? How are they getting it past the scores of parents who are greatly satisfied with their children's public education? And what exactly is the goal of this conspiracy? You say vague crap such as that the public schools intention is to make children “non-thinkers”. What the hell does that even mean? What do the conspirators want these children to not think about?
Look, you can point to all sorts of things to try to argue for complacency, apathy, and disenchantment among the general public with politics and other social matters. You can, for instance, point to the fact that relatively few Americans even bother voting. But if you want to argue that this is an intentional result that is caused by public schooling, you have to back it up, and you haven't even begun to do so.
What's more pathetic about your argument is that there are people, intelligent, thoughtful people, who are actually looking into why our public schools are inadaquate in so many ways, particularly in the area of developing critical thinking skills, greater math and reading/writing proficiency, and creativity. And the answers are (as any thoughtful person might assume) incredibly complex. There is no intention to make children non-thinkers, but there is a lot of difficulty in maintaining a public school system in a huge, highly diverse and politically polarized nation. Compound that with factors of extreme localized urban poverty and a slew of other social ills, and you have your explanation for why our public schools are far from perfect.
| Again; who sets the public standards, and are the current standards teaching children to think or regurgitate, thus leaving them as prey. |
The standards are largely set by people who have made a career in teaching, education administration, and education theory, as well as public servants elected by the public or appointed by those elected by the public. They are not set by a single body as there are levels of standards, federal, state, and local school boards. Again, I invite you to get involved in this transparent system if you think it isn't working properly. You have yet to voice any specific complaints.
| The NEA in 1918 outlines a program to deemphasize critical thinking, replacing it with reading, writing, and math by rote. |
Please cite the document you are referring to, and is this an exact quote? What is the context and reasoning? This statement by itself is worthless for thorough examination and debate.
| It also sets to establish a control that starts with defining social place and how your |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 05/21/2007 17:27:03 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 17:31:44 [Permalink]
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Marfknox---
NEA 1918 Seven Cardinal Principles of Secondary Education
www.wier.ca/~%20daniel_schugurensky/assignment1/1918cardinal.html
This document is from where I derived my outline.
These are stated goals, and in the context of the other quotes very revealing.
What do you think Rockefellers organization (The General Education Board) meant when it states:
"In our dreams, we have limitless resources, and the people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands."
Keep in mind this is one of the private organizations that funded the push for compulsory public schools.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 17:43:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Cuneiformist---You must read the context of the entire document.
You must also read the document in the context of the other quotes provided.
What does Rockefellers organization (The General Education Board) mean when it states:
"In our dreams, we have limitless resources, and the people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands."
Whats does Wilson mean when he says:
"We want one class of persons to have a liberal education and we want another class of persons, a very much larger class of necessity, to forgo the privileges of a liberal education."
Look at the totality of the argument, not a single point with which you can find ambiguity . |
I actually read the entire document. That's why I think it's insane to think that the NEA document from 1918 that you cited suggests any sort of conspiracy of the type you suggest.
As for the quote about molding-- the link is from a site that essentially says the same thing you do, and provides the same quote out of context. It's entirely worthless. And besides, the document you referenced was written in 1902. Even if it really were the case that Rockefeller wanted the country to be made up of a bunch of uncritically-thinking people (and why would he-- then the workforce for which he'd hire people would be made up of clueless dolts incapable of providing solutions and innovations to further the profitability of his businesses!), would those goals still be the same over 100 years later?!? |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 17:50:57 [Permalink]
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You cite Fred Gates as he talked about the Rockefeller GEB. However, in a short biography of him, it says that| Medicine, a relatively new field at the turn of the century, was one of the first testing grounds. In 1901 Gates convinced Rockefeller to found a research facility that would give "men with ideas, imagination and courage," the means to make scientific discoveries aimed at curbing infectious diseases. The Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research (now Rockefeller University) was the first center in the U.S. devoted exclusively to experimental medicine, and has been the site of many biomedical breakthroughs. |
This hardly sounds like the idea of a guy hoping to create a bunch of goons. Indeed, Gate encouraged Rockefeller to found an institution to give critically-thinking people the means by which they could test the limits of medicine. That's some conspiracy! |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 05/21/2007 17:55:09 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 17:54:23 [Permalink]
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| Re Rockefeller's GEB; it last gave away money in 1964. Whatever nefarious aims Rockefeller had to create uncritically-thinking people, they ended ca. 40+ years ago. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 18:18:54 [Permalink]
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Jerome:
Keep in mind this is one of the private organizations that funded the push for compulsory public schools. |
Even if true, it's a logical fallacy in your argument.
You did live during the sixties, right?
Oh how those kids disappointed those trying to mold them, don't you think? Rockefeller must have been spinning in his grave.
Even if there was an attempt to make us docile and obedient, which I doubt, it failed miserably. So who the hell cares what Rockefeller wanted?
One problem you have with your argument Jerome is that the reality of things doesn't match up with your premise.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 18:21:53 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist---
Very curious you deny the quote is in context; provide no proof of this, then give infromation about a medical research institute.
The quote is from The General Education Board.
What could The General Education Board mean when it says:
"In our dreams, we have limitless resources, and the people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands."
In what context has this quote been taken out of.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 18:22:02 [Permalink]
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It's really, really interesting that the only copies of Rockefeller's quote online are just that one section of "Occasional Letter Number One." And many of the copies Google finds lead back to one John Taylor Gatto, who includes an elision in the quote, thusly:In our dreams... people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. It seems that anyone who elides the elision is committing an intellectual crime, whether willfully or not.
But the important question really is: what was in the original that got replaced by those three dots?
Of course, the rest of the quote is interesting, too:The present educational conventions [intellectual and character education] fade from our minds, and unhampered by tradition we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive folk. We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning or men of science. We have not to raise up from among them authors, educators, poets or men of letters. We shall not search for embryo great artists, painters, musicians, nor lawyers, doctors, preachers, politicians, statesmen, of whom we have ample supply. The task we set before ourselves is very simple...we will organize children...and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way. More elisions, but it sounds like he's saying that people shouldn't be forced into "intellectual and character education," so I'm not sure there's anything wrong with that. Not everyone is cut out to be a rocket scientist, so not everyone should be forced to learn rocket science. This is a problem somehow?
The more I think about this, the more "in our dreams" really says "only in our dreams." Because only in a fictional world could everyone be a highly-educated philosopher, scientist or poet. "In our dreams" isn't a mission statement, it's nothing more than an acknowledgement of reality. He's saying that the goal of public schools (if the quote is really about public schooling) should not be to make every student a Nobel prize winner. Such would be an unrealistic waste of resources.
Unfortunately, it seems that nobody has seen fit to put the entire "Letter" online, or at least not in a place where it's easily discoverable. One of these days, I really am going to have to make time to go to the Library of Congress. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 18:34:57 [Permalink]
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Dave W.---Thanks for more of the quote
It helps with my initial proposition
"we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive folk'
"We have not to raise up from among them"
"we will organize children"
Dave said: "in our dreams" really says "only in our dreams."
Based on the quote you supplied it looks as if The General Education Board believes itself above and beyond the masses with the right to create a plan of action with goals.
Thus they are saying "in our dreams" as in aspirations. They certainly set; in broad strokes, a plan to achieve the dream.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 18:43:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Thus they are saying "in our dreams" as in aspirations. They certainly set; in broad strokes, a plan to achieve the dream. |
So you're saying that Rockefeller (et al) set out for themselves an unreachable goal which has never been reached, and this is the core of the problem with American education? Everyone can see, JEROME, that the public school system was utterly wasted on you. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 18:53:46 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist---
"Rockefeller wanted the country to be made up of a bunch of uncritically-thinking people (and why would he--"
The list also includes Carnegie, Morgan, and Ford.
This would create button pushing consumers.
Remember this is the age of assembly lines and mass production.
They needed button pushers on the assembly line and consumers to purchased items they produced.
As a bonus this population of non-thinkers would be less likely to be competition.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Compulsory Government Education
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