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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 05/21/2007 : 18:59:04 [Permalink]
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Kil---"You did live during the sixties, right?" born in the seventies
Oh how those kids disappointed those trying to mold them, don't you think?"
Now there is a great argument as to the purpose of the sixties cultural revolution.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 19:00:43 [Permalink]
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Dave W.---"Rockefeller (et al) set out for themselves an unreachable goal which has never been reached"
Do we not have a society of button pushing consumers?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 19:18:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Cuneiformist---
Very curious you deny the quote is in context; provide no proof of this, then give infromation about a medical research institute. |
Are you stupid? The quote was from an article by some guy arguing the same crap you are. By DEFINITION, it is out of context. The only proof you need is the fraking link.
As for my discussion of the medical research center-- it was simply to show that contrary to your claims, Rockefeller and those working with him were actually interested in fostering critical thinking. That you didn't bother to refute that is telling.
The quote is from The General Education Board.
What could The General Education Board mean when it says:
"In our dreams, we have limitless resources, and the people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands."
In what context has this quote been taken out of. |
Again: are you stupid? The context is the entire document. I have no idea what the GEB meant when they wrote that-- and as Dave noted, there is an elision in the quote, demonstrating again that you need it in context to understand what is meant.
(As a radical example, suppose that in context, the quote actually was "We must fight against those who say that 'in our dreams, we have limitless resources, and the people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands.'")
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 19:25:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
The list also includes Carnegie, Morgan, and Ford.
This would create button pushing consumers.
Remember this is the age of assembly lines and mass production.
They needed button pushers on the assembly line and consumers to purchased items they produced.
As a bonus this population of non-thinkers would be less likely to be competition. |
You're just speculating and making things up. And again, the counter-argument to this is that these wealthy philanthropists would also be in favor of having smart people working for them to, say, design better cars, or cheaper ways to make steel, etc. Indeed, these people founded some of the country's great universities-- like the University of Chicago and Carnegie Mellon. How could they be in favor of a poorly-educated public and yet found institutions devoted to the highest levels of learning? The logic is baffling. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 19:55:48 [Permalink]
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I need to go to bed so I'll get back to this debate in full swing again tomorrow. I just want to say for now that Cune is doing an excellent job of responding to Jerome's flimsy response of old, ambiguous, and out-of-context quotes.
Also, in response to this: | Do we not have a society of button pushing consumers? |
American society is not especially dumbed-down when compared to the rest of the entire world. People in the USA are actually rather well-educated compared to a lot of places. And none of my friends - most of who were educated in public schools - are button pushing consumers. I find such generalizations about Americans as a whole rash and ignorant. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 21:28:28 [Permalink]
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To dismiss the past is to blind oneself to the present and the future.
Now is not all there has been, nor is it all there is to come.
Marfknox said: " American society is not especially dumbed-down when compared to the rest of the entire world."
My comparison is previous levels of self literacy to current levels of industrial literacy.
There are many examples of non-educated peoples doing extraordinary things using self teaching(i.e.learning by and of choice); more so in the past, but there are current examples.
The Dumbing Down of America's Colleges
April 1996 Phyllis Schlafly Report
www.ourcivilisation.com/dumb/dumb2.htm
"The National Association of Scholars (NAS), has just published a devastating 65-page report on its investigation of the courses offered and required at 50 top undergraduate colleges and universities."
"California state legislators recently discovered the high cost to the taxpayers of the remedial education courses given at the state universities. Last year, 60 percent of new students needed remedial help"
Harold Bloom, Ph.D.
www.eagleforum.org/educate/2003/nov03/reading.html
"Our society and our literature and our culture are being dumbed down, and the causes are very complex. I'm 73 years old. In a lifetime of teaching English, I've seen the study of literature debased."
Commentary on another forum:
"There is still a group of intelligent students who excel at their studies. BUT, the problem is the students with no literacy skills. They would never have been accepted into university 40 yrs ago. They would not have even graduated high school!
These students, who have been passed without the attendant skills, enter the university and are placed into remedial or developmental classes to get them up to speed. These classes are a joke. How can a student reading at 3rd gr. level attain 12th gr. level in 4 and a half mos.?
But, because colleges and universities need the tuition, they pass these students to other higher classes. I have seen college seniors who could not write a coherent sentence."
John Dewey, Dumbing Down, and The Scandal of Dyslexia
www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=20392
"You didn't need that much literacy or knowledge. Dewey actually saw these as impediments. He calls, especially in the early grades, for sharply curtailing the study of literature, history, math, science, geography and such, in order to make room for social activities, specifically, “cooking, sewing, manual training, etc.” (his words)."
This last one about Deweys ideas of education are the same as my reading of the 1918 NEA document.
This only shows there is much debate about the dumbing down of America.
Shall we pull videos of man on the street interviews from The Tonight Show?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 04:41:30 [Permalink]
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| JdG, even if the quotes you've selected accurately reflect reality (and I don't think they do-- Schlafly and her Eagle Forum and news outlets like the Washington Times have an agenda against our current education system; this is keeping in line with a conservative ideology), it doesn't show that such declines in education are the fault of schools (versus other social or cultural factors), nor does it prove-- or even suggest!-- that it's some government conspiracy. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 04:54:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Shall we pull videos of man on the street interviews from The Tonight Show? |
You know that those "man on the street" clips are a joke-- people know that they'll only get on TV if they deliberately give the stupidest answer possible. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 05:49:08 [Permalink]
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| Wow, using The Tonight Show for proof? LOL! This is utterly ridiculous. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 06:55:51 [Permalink]
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I would encourage you all to read an American high school text book from the 1920's with its complex language and comprehensive presentation of ideas and compare this with the bulletin points and pretty pictures of current text books.
Do not trust what I or others believe on the subject; trust your own knowledge.
I have family and friends in the current public schools system; thus access to current text.
I have a friend (public school teacher) with which I commiserate about the school system, we read old text books and compare them to new.
Please look for your own firsthand knowledge, go to your local used book store and find a American public school text from the 1920's and I guarantee you will agree that public schooling has been dumbed down.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 07:05:52 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist--- Politics tend to blind, for the purpose of obscuring the real goals.
Remember Bush and Kennedy gave us No Child Left Behind; a program that forces schools to spend a great deal of resources on the lowest common in an attempt to raise towards minimum standards with little for the goals of excellence.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 07:20:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Cuneiformist--- Politics tend to blind, for the purpose of obscuring the real goals. |
Oh, good point. But fortunately, we have smart, savvy people like you who are onto the government's nefarious plans!!
You should be careful, though. Once the government knows that you're exposing their evil plan, they might try to take you out!!
| Remember Bush and Kennedy gave us No Child Left Behind; a program that forces schools to spend a great deal of resources on the lowest common in an attempt to raise towards minimum standards with little for the goals of excellence. |
I've not heard many good things about NCLB, but I again find no evidence that this is part of some giant conspiracy to keep us from having critical reasoning skills. Oh-- I guess I've just been blinded by politics. Never mind. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 07:44:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I would encourage you all to read an American high school text book from the 1920's with its complex language and comprehensive presentation of ideas and compare this with the bulletin points and pretty pictures of current text books.
Do not trust what I or others believe on the subject; trust your own knowledge.
I have family and friends in the current public schools system; thus access to current text.
I have a friend (public school teacher) with which I commiserate about the school system, we read old text books and compare them to new.
Please look for your own firsthand knowledge, go to your local used book store and find a American public school text from the 1920's and I guarantee you will agree that public schooling has been dumbed down. |
I have no doubt that the writing-style in, say, 1920, was quite different from today. But I think it's a common fallacy to assume that older, flowery language somehow represents a higher level of discourse while a simpler style represents dumbing-down.
Moreover, you discount the fact that in, for instance, 1920, high school kids weren't taking calculus. Now it's quite common. Though I haven't the time to look just yet, I'd wager that modern chemistry, physics, and biology texts also cover a far wider range of topics than those of 1920. And of course, any 1920 history text won't include things like, say, the Great Depression, or WWII. 
So I find your argument to be weak. (And it still shows on sign of a government conspiracy.) |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 07:47:52 [Permalink]
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www.nas.org/reports/disogened/excont.htm
This report; The Dissolution of General Education: 1914-1993, compares college courses from the top 50 ranked schools in 1914, 1939, 1964, and 1993.
The data presented shows for a certainty the core needs of a student , reading, writing, and math are less emphasized to an increasing degree over time.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 08:00:25 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist---"I think it's a common fallacy to assume that older, flowery language somehow represents a higher level of discourse while a simpler style represents dumbing-down."
Incorrect, I am comparing my actual reading of the texts and the level of thought necessary to contemplate the expanse of ideas presented in the older text to the simple presentation of fact in the newer text.
Please read an older text before assuming what therein is contained.
Cune said: "And of course, any 1920 history text won't include things like, say, the Great Depression, or WWII."
I hope this is a joke as predicting the future would be quite a task for any text.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Compulsory Government Education
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