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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 05/22/2007 : 20:02:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Cuneiformist---Do you have a rebuttal, or a reasoned argument as to why what I stated was illogical?
Do you believe that presenting an opportunity to think lessens the likelihood of thought?
This would be illogical. |
Thanks, Spock. It's clear that you're misunderstanding what B10 is saying. The point about manipulating numbers was how to manage numbers using a paper and pencil when calculating beyond basic addition. You're suggesting that there are somehow multiple ways to think about, for instance, quadratic equations, and that if left to their own devices, kids will use critical thinking to figure it out on their own.
Same goes for your facile reasoning about science and scientific experiments. B10 clearly explained that early texts taught kids by rote: If you do A plus B then C will happen. Next!. Modern methods explain why C happens, and allows kids to take those principles and push them further. There's no reason to re-invent the wheel every semester-- somethign you seem to think is essential to a quality education. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 20:24:49 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist---Thank you for your response.
Math is as much about training the mind to think as it is learning how to measure the universe.
My point is that only half the reason for math is being taught.
The half that is taught is the half that measures.
Creating button pushers.
Science books: "explain science concepts with little or no discussion of how these were determined"
Thus allowing thought about a concept with the allowance to discover its meaning and application.
Not telling the meaning and application.
Do you not see that telling the application and meaning puts a box on the concept?
"give lots of little experiments to perform, but provide no assistance on drawing accurate conclusions from the data"
Again a predetermined conclusion puts a box around the experiment and thought process.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 05/22/2007 : 20:34:26 [Permalink]
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Jerome:
Do you not see that telling the application and meaning puts a box on the concept? |
Yeah Cune, don't you get it? Each kid is supposed to figure out how natural selection works on his own. It's okay to talk a little about evolution, as long as they don't tell the kids how it works. Otherwise, you stifle the kids thinking skills. And as we know, every kid has a Darwin in him somewhere….
Jerome, Your reply to both Cune and Boron really did take my breath away in its stupidity. I know you are just blowing out your ass. I bet you could do better if you tried…
I'll give you this though, you make me laugh…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 20:53:10 [Permalink]
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Kil---
With this you imply all concepts immovable.
If you teach what it is and what it means, there is little room for discovery of new.
You certainly can find many examples of concepts that have proven false ; but what if those concepts were demanded true on a wide scale from youth, would we have the discoveries of today.
Truth in application and meaning will be discovered; it does not need to be demanded.
Potential new discoveries will be lost with the telling (not discovering) of application and meaning.
What if the concept of six days of creation were demanded true from youth and there was no allowance for THINKING about the concept?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 21:12:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
If you teach what it is and what it means, there is little room for discovery of new.
You certainly can find many examples of concepts that have proven false ; but what if those concepts were demanded true on a wide scale from youth, would we have the discoveries of today.
Truth in application and meaning will be discovered; it does not need to be demanded.
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You can be taught facts within the context of larger educational framework. You absolutely need to do it this way, or you won't get anywhere in any reasonable time. You can't derive everything from first principles every time.
If a physical law/theorem I learnt at high school / university turns out to be wrong, so be it. The fact that I learnt it as "fact" doesn't matter, anyone who knows anything about the methodology science (and admittedly I'm thinking mostly of the physical sciences) knows that a better theory is always an option.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Potential new discoveries will be lost with the telling (not discovering) of application and meaning. |
Potential new discoveries are not (Well, OK, rarely) going to happen at a primary or high school level, or even at university level for that matter. There's so much stuff you've got to get a firm foundation in before you start pushing boundaries.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
What if the concept of six days of creation were demanded true from youth and there was no allowance for THINKING about the concept? |
Once people gain enough knowledge of other science to see the flaws in this concept, they'd start to question it. No big deal, it happens all the time. 6 year olds being taught this sort of stuff in Sunday School don't (generally) THINK about it.
As a teacher you don't have time to have all of your high school students thinking about why the integration of polynomials works the way it does, or why gravity is an inverse square law. They simply don't have the skills to do so in a sensible fashion.
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John's just this guy, you know. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 21:13:56 [Permalink]
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What if the concept of six days of creation were demanded true from youth and there was no allowance for THINKING about the concept? |
Well, that is how it was for Darwin, but anyway, who said kids are not encouraged to think about the concepts? How can they think about concepts like genetic drift or natural selection unless they know what what they are? Actually teaching the method that science is built on is a good thing. Actually teaching how scientific theories were arrived at is a good thing.
Do you actually expect kids to come up with the Scientific Method on their own? And what kind of box does knowing how science works put kids in to? If they actually know the method, they can use it. An experiment means nothing without a context.
And yes, kids are still encouraged to experiment…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 21:40:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dave---Most college students come from public school. Lacking in general education pigeon holes a student into a direction (pushing this button only). This is to my point. |
If the goal was to create button-pushers only, then getting kids into college would be anathema to today's public-school teachers. Clearly this is not the case, remedial learning or not.
Besides, that was not the NAS' point, so I maintain that your use of that report was intellectually dishonest and an attempt to shift the goalposts.
Direct question, JEROME: did you attend college? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 21:47:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Math is as much about training the mind to think as it is learning how to measure the universe. |
"Math" is not at all about measuring the universe, whether you're talking about basic arithmetic or deep formal logics. With most measurements, there is no math required whatsoever. Just because there are numbers involved doesn't make it math. It just (once again) highlights your ignorance of the topics you choose to discuss. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 22:21:44 [Permalink]
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Dave---Mathematics is
the science of numbers and their operations, interrelations, combinations, generalizations, and abstractions and of space configurations and their structure, measurement, transformations, and generalizations
It is a tool to measure the universe.
It is also a tool of thought training.
No Dave I have never attended college, if fact I never graduated high school.
If you would like to discount my arguments based on these facts keep in mind I have achieved most of the current socially accepted goals of success well beyond the average.
I am also offended by the question.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 22:28:48 [Permalink]
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Kil--- "Actually teaching the method that science is built on is a good thing"
Agreed, but this is not the difference discussed in relation to the old and new texts.
The old text gives concepts and facts allowing exploration of such.
The new text tells concepts and facts explaining the meaning of such.
" And what kind of box does knowing how science works put kids in to?"
Knowing how science works is not a box.
Teaching the meaning to the results is a box. Unless you propose that all meaning has been discovered.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 22:40:18 [Permalink]
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JohnOAS---"or you won't get anywhere in any reasonable time"
This goes to the current method of teaching.
Concept, explanation, regurgitation.
BELL rings
Move on
This method, you must admit, does not allow for much thought.
"There's so much stuff you've got to get a firm foundation in before you start pushing boundaries."
Your statement proposes a box is created for you, and then maybe sometime in the future you might push boundaries.
" 6 year olds being taught this sort of stuff ... don't (generally) THINK about it."
This is a very untrue statement regardless the subject.
This is the thinking process that puts people into boxes and encourages them not to push the boundaries of the box.
"They simply don't have the skills to do so in a sensible fashion."
This statement is the BOX.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2007 : 07:50:36 [Permalink]
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| My comparison is previous levels of self literacy to current levels of industrial literacy. |
You are doing a crappy job of comparing those two. You made a lot of unsupported statements and posted a lot of unrelated or barely related links with vague and random quotes. However, it is a fact that literacy increased with the dawn of public education. Sure, previous to that there were people who educated themselves, but those were extraordinary examples. What about the rest? What about the majority of regular people?
| There are many examples of non-educated peoples doing extraordinary things using self teaching(i.e.learning by and of choice); more so in the past, but there are current examples. |
Bullshit! Back that shit up right now! I want proof that people with poor education in this country are less likely to do extraordinary things today than they were 90 years ago.
| "California state legislators recently discovered the high cost to the taxpayers of the remedial education courses given at the state universities. Last year, 60 percent of new students needed remedial help" |
Random statistic. Put this in the context of a coherent and specific support for your overall thesis and then it will mean something that can be responded to.
| "Our society and our literature and our culture are being dumbed down, and the causes are very complex. I'm 73 years old. In a lifetime of teaching English, I've seen the study of literature debased." |
Random and incredibly vague quote. What does it mean for the study of literature to be “debased”? How the hell does this - even if it were defined by measurable terms and proven to be true – support your overall thesis? In other words, even if you can prove that education in America has degraded over the last few decades, how does that in-of-itself prove any kind of conspiracy? There are tons of social factors which are more likely explanations in the absence of any evidence of a conspiracy to intentionally dumb down our kids.
From the article on John Dewey: | John Dewey wanted you to be a happy member of a group. You didn't need that much literacy or knowledge. Dewey actually saw these as impediments. He calls, especially in the early grades, for sharply curtailing the study of literature, history, math, science, geography and such, in order to make room for social activities, specifically, “cooking, sewing, manual training, etc.” (his words). So here, tragically and pathologically, John Dewey, Educator, metamorphosed into that most unexpected of things: John Dewey, Anti-Educator. To advance his sociopolitical visions, Dewey was eager to dilute content and diminish learning. |
His socio-political visions? Well that's a vague term. Look, we all have socio-political visions, even you. And there is NO SYSTEM that we could implement – even anarchy – that would not be pushing someone's socio-political vision. So you could use this s |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2007 : 07:54:55 [Permalink]
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| One more thing - as for remedial lessons being taught in colleges as evidence of the degradation of public elementary and high schools... you are forgetting a major factor: a much higher percentage of the population is attending college these days. In the 1920's college was only for certain professions, and blue color jobs were the mainstay for most people. But today the blue color jobs are going overseas and down to Mexico, and the mainstay for regular folks is becoming service industry, medical industry, and technocrat jobs. College is not necessary for the first, and you find that most people who stay in the service industry do not get college educations. But higher education is needed for other industries, and in order to accomodate the changing job landscape, colleges and universities are not serving a much broader spectrum of educational needs that simply didn't exist 90 years ago. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2007 : 08:04:45 [Permalink]
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Jerome wrote: This complaint has been common for almost fifty years; the solution seems to always be more governmental involvement begetting worse results.
The definition of crazy is doing the same thing over and over expecting diffrent results. |
Wow, talk about twisting the meaning of things… First of all, the solution has not been more government involvement. In many school districts solutions to poor education have included the integration of charter schools which have less government involvement. However, the results of charter school education has been a very mixed bag, including many very bad results.
Also, solutions which include “more government involvement” are not all the same thing. Maybe that means more money for schools. Maybe that means the use of standardized testing for accountability. Maybe that means changing how the money is distributed. Maybe that means changing or adding to the standards for teacher certification. So to just lump all forms of “more government involvement” together and say that that is the cause of our public school woes is dull-witted and ignorant to the say the least!
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2007 : 08:34:42 [Permalink]
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Marfknox--- Excuse me for not giving a sequential argument to support this theory. I have attempt to answer the responses of other.
I will first show current literacy in America is very low.
http://tinyurl.com/2tb5or
Twenty-one to 23 percent -- or some 40 to 44 million of the 191 million adults in this country -- demonstrated skills in the lowest level of prose, document, and quantitative proficiencies (Level 1).
this level performed simple, routine tasks involving brief and uncomplicated texts and documents. For example, they were able to total an entry on a deposit slip, locate the time or place of a meeting on a form, and identify a piece of specific information in a brief news article.
Some 25 to 28 percent of the respondents, representing about 50 million adults nationwide, demonstrated skills in the next higher level of proficiency (Level 2)
They were generally able to locate information in text, to make low-level inferences using printed materials, and to integrate easily identifiable pieces of information. Further, they demonstrated the ability to perform quantitative tasks that involve a single operation where the numbers are either stated or can be easily found in text. For example, adults in this level were able to calculate the total cost of a purchase or determine the difference in price between two items. They could also locate a particular intersection on a street map and enter background information on a simple form.
Nearly one-third of the survey participants, or about 61 million adults nationwide, demonstrated performance in Level 3
were able to integrate information from relatively long or dense text or from documents. Those in the third level on the quantitative scale were able to determine the appropriate arithmetic operation based on information contained in the directive, and to identify the quantities needed to perform that operation.
Levels 1, 2, and 3 would be skills that should have been taught in elementary school.
Approximately 155 million adults out of 191 million do not have or are at the skill that should be learned by the age of 10 years.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Compulsory Government Education
Topic Locked
