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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 05/22/2007 : 08:10:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
www.nas.org/reports/disogened/excont.htm
This report; The Dissolution of General Education: 1914-1993, compares college courses from the top 50 ranked schools in 1914, 1939, 1964, and 1993.
The data presented shows for a certainty the core needs of a student , reading, writing, and math are less emphasized to an increasing degree over time. |
The study was done on colleges, and not high schools. Moreover, I don't believe that the conclusions necessarily follow from the data presented. That is, just because fewer universities make taking a philosophy course mandatory, doesn't mean that a) students still won't take them (I took 3 in college and it was neither required nor my major or minor), and b) that it shows some devaluation in their education. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 08:11:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Cuneiformist---"I think it's a common fallacy to assume that older, flowery language somehow represents a higher level of discourse while a simpler style represents dumbing-down."
Incorrect, I am comparing my actual reading of the texts and the level of thought necessary to contemplate the expanse of ideas presented in the older text to the simple presentation of fact in the newer text.
Please read an older text before assuming what therein is contained. |
Thanks. I'll just pull out my dusty old 1920 Calculus text book and have a look.
Cune said: "And of course, any 1920 history text won't include things like, say, the Great Depression, or WWII."
I hope this is a joke as predicting the future would be quite a task for any text. |
Of course it's a joke. Did you notice the " " afterwards? Relax.
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 08:37:37 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist---"Though I haven't the time to look just yet, I'd wager that modern chemistry, physics, and biology texts also cover a far wider range of topics than those of 1920."
Do some reading of the older text before assuming what knowledge they contain.
I have told you I have read the older text and newer text; and you are assuming what they contain based on nothing more than intuition.
Facts and information do change over time; of course, but the point is the exploration of ideas and expansion of the thought process is not promoted with the current text and was promoted with the past text.
http://tinyurl.com/ysdql9
Heres some older Calculus text for you to read.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 08:51:05 [Permalink]
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The fact that the public school system is going through a difficult time and everyone knows it, points away from your conspiracy theory Jerome. The problem is the usual suspects. Not enough money to entice more people into the profession of teaching coupled with a top heavy bureaucracy and stupid and counter productive programs like standardized testing are what needs to be looked at.
The fact that most of us know that the system needs work points away from your basic premise that the schools are in the business of popping out drones who will not complain about the state of things.
With all the good arguments here, none of which are yours Jerome, I can't get passed the fact that the reality of how things really are is opposite of the premise of the OP.
There is no conspiracy to dumb down public education. There are bad policies that need to be addressed.
You can brush off this observation again Jerome as I suspect you will. Or you can show me the drones. Frankly, I don't see it. Not when almost everyone is complaining about the state of public education and the need to fix it in one way or another.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 09:22:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Do some reading of the older text before assuming what knowledge they contain.
I have told you I have read the older text and newer text; and you are assuming what they contain based on nothing more than intuition.
Facts and information do change over time; of course, but the point is the exploration of ideas and expansion of the thought process is not promoted with the current text and was promoted with the past text. |
The problem is that I am completely uninformed as to which texts are good or bad. To be sure, there are plenty of bad textbooks out there right now. But knowing little about, say, biology, I wouldn't know which one to pick up and use as a model textbook. Of course, I could probably find some book reviews and with enough data I could probably find one or two excellent examples. This would be much harder for 1920, though. How do I know that I'm picking up an excellent 1920 textbook?
One example I can use are language texts. I have some older (1950's, I think-- I'll check when I'm at home) Russian textbooks, and I can compare them to the much more recent German and Italian instruction books. And I'm sorry to say, but the modern ones blow the older ones away. The pictures and the like in the modern books are nice, but more importantly, the pedagogical tools in the modern books are better. There's less demand for power rote learning in the modern books (e.g. fewer massive paradigms and the like), and a broader instruction of German (or Italian) culture that makes the instruction more complete.
I might also use some college-level books for an introduction to Mesopotamian history. In college, I used an older version of Roux's Ancient Iraq. It was written in the 50's by a retired-- oil (or was that chemicals?) man while living in Basra. The prose is very much of an older flowery style, and while he doesn't get things wrong the whole book is sort of muddled. Conversely, there is the very recent book by van de Mieroop, A History of the Ancient Near East. This only recently came out, and is written in a more direct style. It's far more logical, and I would have enjoyed my first class on Mesopotamian history much more were the more recent book available.
But perhaps I'm just dumbed down like all the other people in this country... |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 05/22/2007 09:23:24 |
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 09:48:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Furshur---"Well the way I look at it a one world government would be the greatest thing to ever happen to humanity"
This is a very valid point of view; I am not making an argument one way or another, just pointing out the purpose of public schooling.
I am torn between the arguments for and against world government.
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Yeah, well... it really depends on what government will rule the world.
It might be good for some and bad for others.
Would frontiers be abolished?
What education system would be installed?
Would it be the same system for every region?
Would it be a secular or religious government?
Capitalism, Communism, Socialisms, left, right, centre right, centre left?
Whose government? The USīs? The third reichīs? (I am not comparing the two, just making a point of how many different forms of government can be? Who will choose? I honestly think is really too complex to do it democrately and if itīs just imposed by the strongest, well I donīt want it, thanks!
Cheers
perrodetokio |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 13:35:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Cuneiformist---"Though I haven't the time to look just yet, I'd wager that modern chemistry, physics, and biology texts also cover a far wider range of topics than those of 1920."
Do some reading of the older text before assuming what knowledge they contain.
I have told you I have read the older text and newer text; and you are assuming what they contain based on nothing more than intuition.
Facts and information do change over time; of course, but the point is the exploration of ideas and expansion of the thought process is not promoted with the current text and was promoted with the past text.
http://tinyurl.com/ysdql9
Heres some older Calculus text for you to read. |
Ah, now we have hit on a hobby of mine: old math and science books. Oddly enough, the older math books spend a lot more time discussing ways to manipulate numbers, and less time explaining the actual concepts! Rather than blaming the decline in the numerical analytical capabilities of modern students, I blame the calculator (oh, so wonderful invention) for freeing us to learn more advanced mathematical concepts.
Also, as Cuneiformist pointed out earlier, high-school students today are awarded the opportunity to take higher-level math classes.
With old science books, there tend to be two types (classification mine): fact books and project books. The fact books would explain science concepts with little or no discussion of how these were determined. The project books would give lots of little experiments to perform, but provide no assistance on drawing accurate conclusions from the data. Modern science books, however, spend a good amount of time discussing "the scientific method," including the importance of failed experiments, retesting other science experiments, and various other fundamental concepts in the search for knowledge.
Is this an indicative trend towards "dumbing down" the populace?
I expect your counter-argument will be something like, "sure we are better at math and science, but what about logic and critical thinking?" Well, JEROME DA GNOME, I challenge you to find any significant differences between math and logic, and between science and critical thinking.
Anyway, our school system may be having troubles, but (if we go by textbooks and school curricula) it is clearly not due to any nefarious plan by the government. Perhaps, if students are not doing well, it is because they are not taught well. Perhaps students don't care as much because they are not afraid of getting slapped on the wrist with a ruler. Perhaps the government is trying to make us smarter, but is failing miserably. Perhaps (and this is a contentious conjecture, I know) people are actually getting a decent education out of public school and, due to sensationalism, we only perceive a "dumbing down" of the populace. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 14:00:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dave W.---"Rockefeller (et al) set out for themselves an unreachable goal which has never been reached"
Do we not have a society of button pushing consumers? |
If we do, I would blame the denizens of Madison Avenue over the last few decades for it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 14:06:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Boron10
Ah, now we have hit on a hobby of mine: old math and science books. Oddly enough, the older math books spend a lot more time discussing ways to manipulate numbers, and less time explaining the actual concepts! Rather than blaming the decline in the numerical analytical capabilities of modern students, I blame the calculator (oh, so wonderful invention) for freeing us to learn more advanced mathematical concepts.
Also, as Cuneiformist pointed out earlier, high-school students today are awarded the opportunity to take higher-level math classes.
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Brilliant, B10! Thanks for those observations-- it makes a lot of sense, and reminds me of some of the lessons I first had regarding basic addition and subtraction as a kid back in the early, early 80's. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 14:26:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
www.nas.org/reports/disogened/excont.htm
This report; The Dissolution of General Education: 1914-1993, compares college courses from the top 50 ranked schools in 1914, 1939, 1964, and 1993.
The data presented shows for a certainty the core needs of a student , reading, writing, and math are less emphasized to an increasing degree over time. |
A nice example of bold intellectual dishonesty there, Jerome, presenting data from colleges instead of public schools. Shame on you.
Also, the NAS report is bemoaning the loss of general education in favor of specialization. It by no means suggests that college students are only being taught how to be button-pushing consumers. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 18:27:41 [Permalink]
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Dave---Most college students come from public school. Lacking in general education pigeon holes a student into a direction (pushing this button only). This is to my point.
REMEDIAL
1 : intended as a remedy
2 : concerned with the correction of faulty study habits and the raising of a pupil's general competence
"of the 12 California state university colleges, 60% of students need remediation; a Florida study showed at least 70% of recent high school graduates need remedial courses when they enter community college"
USA Today, pg. 14A, November 24, 1997
nces.ed.gov/surveys/peqis/publications/97584/3.asp
"About three-quarters (78 percent) of higher education institutions that enrolled freshmen offered at least one remedial reading, writing, or mathematics course in fall 1995"
The evidence suggests that public schools do a very poor job of teaching math, reading, and writing. These are all foundations to thinking; if a remedy is needed to correct these deficiencies, you can plainly see thinking is also a deficiency.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 18:42:31 [Permalink]
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Boron---
1. "the older math books spend a lot more time discussing ways to manipulate numbers, and less time explaining the actual concepts!"
This is to my point; "discussing ways to manipulate numbers" teaches one how to think, "learning concepts" teaches one what to think.
2. "explain science concepts with little or no discussion of how these were determined."
Thus allowing for thought: I wonder --- How was this determined?
3. "give lots of little experiments to perform, but provide no assistance on drawing accurate conclusions from the data"
Again allowing for thought and experimentation: What happened there? Why did that happen? Can I make it happen again?
4. "Modern science books, however, spend a good amount of time discussing "the scientific method," including the importance of failed experiments, retesting other science experiments, and various other fundamental concepts in the search for knowledge."
Now this teaches what to think: Oh thats how they did it. Thats why they did it. Sure am glad they did all that thinking for me.
Now think about this assessment of the two types of text.
Which one teaches to think and which one teach what to think?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 18:50:24 [Permalink]
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Kill---"Not when almost everyone is complaining about the state of public education and the need to fix it in one way or another."
This was a major debate between Kennedy and Nixon.
This complaint has been common for almost fifty years; the solution seems to always be more governmental involvement begetting worse results.
The definition of crazy is doing the same thing over and over expecting diffrent results.
Either the powers that be are crazy or it is intentional.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 19:26:12 [Permalink]
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| JdG-- your reply to B10 was so full of logical errors that you should simply put yourself forward as Exhibit A for failure in teaching any sort of reasoned thinking. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 19:51:00 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist---Do you have a rebuttal, or a reasoned argument as to why what I stated was illogical?
Do you believe that presenting an opportunity to think lessens the likelihood of thought?
This would be illogical.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Compulsory Government Education
Topic Locked
