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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 06/08/2007 : 23:15:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Preamble
promote the general Welfare
article 1 section 8
1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
3: To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes
Authority and obligation! |
Huh. I see the word "sovereignty" nowhere in that quote, nor do I see any obligation to protect the U.S. from anything outside the "common defence," which was generally regarded as a non-economic ideal.
Plus, if regulation fails, then why would you favor a government who has the power to regulate commerce with foreign nations?
The obvious answer is that it's because you're a troll and don't give a damn about what you think so long as it irritates others. I'm looking for something unobvious. Got anything? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 10:12:57 [Permalink]
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Kil, regulation of foreign trade that allows undercutting of American business is not argued by many as promoting the general welfare.
The only possible argument would be that American consumers can purchase goods for less. Short term minor gains at the loss of American capitol and jobs does not in most assessments promote the general welfare.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 10:18:34 [Permalink]
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Dave, the constitution itself establishes sovereignty. I believe in the contract of the constitution; it creates some regulation within certain defined bounds that include foreign trade.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 11:02:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Kil, regulation of foreign trade that allows undercutting of American business is not argued by many as promoting the general welfare.
The only possible argument would be that American consumers can purchase goods for less. Short term minor gains at the loss of American capitol and jobs does not in most assessments promote the general welfare.
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No Jerome. There are many more arguments on both sides of the issue then the one you favor. And I am in no mood to look for them and list them all. You know as well as I do that the arguments are many and varied and usually much more complicated then your little summary of “the only possible argument.” What I can say is that promoting the general welfare, as nebulous a term as that is, is the goal no matter how you think things are going with free trade. Perhaps it was a mistake and perhaps a long-term goal will be realized that will ultimately be beneficial to our economy.
I could easily make a case, for example, that a national health will promote the general welfare. I suspect that you would not agree. See how that works?
You have already lost the constitutional part of this argument. You can, of course, argue that free trade is not working. But your constitutional argument does not hold water.
Feel free to kick a dead horse if you like. But unless you can point to a part of the constitution that prohibits free trade, or can prove that our current laws were put in place with the intent of weakening our nation, your argument fails the test…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 11:14:23 [Permalink]
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Kil, the constitution provides no authority to nationalize health care. It does provide the authority to regulate foreign trade.
I never asserted that the constitution prohibits free trade. I asserted that there is an obligation to promote general welfare and one of the tools prescribed is the regulation of foreign trade.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 06/09/2007 : 12:59:50 [Permalink]
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Jerome:
I never asserted that the constitution prohibits free trade. I asserted that there is an obligation to promote general welfare and one of the tools prescribed is the regulation of foreign trade. |
Oh, I see. Well, so ummmm… Garsh…
Yes, to promote the general welfare. Can you show that our governments motive for freeing up trade with other nations had some other motive?
And remember when you answer, that motive has nothing to do with some bad results in this case, unless you can establish that as the intent. And since the Republicans have been pushing for free trade for a long time, I doubt that you will find that it was to ruin our economy or hurt business.
Otherwise, you have leaded us on a wild goose chase that proves nothing and makes no point…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 13:15:04 [Permalink]
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Kil, motive is a tough thing to "prove". All I can do is to show laws that have been put in place over a long period of time and the results thereof.
If I present a series of laws and treaties that over a long period of time neuter American national sovereignty at the benefit of the ruling elite, will you concede the point that American government has not met its obligation to promte the genral welfare?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 14:59:32 [Permalink]
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Jerome:
If I present a series of laws and treaties that over a long period of time neuter American national sovereignty at the benefit of the ruling elite, will you concede the point that American government has not met its obligation to promte the genral welfare? |
Only if you can demonstrate that the intent of these “laws and treaties” are meant to weaken our country and are demonstrably antithetical to promoting the common good, and not just your opinion of what the common good should be.
Pretty much, you will have to demonstrate that these “laws and treaties” amount to treason.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 16:27:45 [Permalink]
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Kil, demonstrating that these “laws and treaties” amount to treason is a standard for which I am ill equipped. Taken as a whole the loss of American sovereignty can be proven.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 17:30:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I asserted that there is an obligation to promote general welfare and one of the tools prescribed is the regulation of foreign trade. |
Wait, wait, wait. You're opposed to regulation of internal American trade because you think the free market provides a better alternative to government intrusion, yet you're for regulation of foreign trade to the point where you think it's okay for the Federal Government to dictate to Americans which foreigners they can buy stuff from? Does that sum up your position accurately? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 19:08:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Kil, demonstrating that these “laws and treaties” amount to treason is a standard for which I am ill equipped. Taken as a whole the loss of American sovereignty can be proven.
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"Taken as a whole" is what I worry about.
A conspiracy theorist is likely to make connections that either don't exist or find connections that I wouldn't make, or stand by tenuous connections as though they were proof of wildly speculative conclusions. You have done all of those things in other threads, Jerome, and it gets tiresome.
I dunno…
Why don't you answer Dave's question first.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 20:44:45 [Permalink]
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| Moderator: This is the Health folder. Please get this thread back on track with a health related issue. You have moved into national sovergnity which is the perview of Politics. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 20:52:35 [Permalink]
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| Oh, by the way Jerome. You have five threads going now. Don't start any new ones until at least a couple of those have run their course. If you really want to start a topic before then, send it to me or Dave for approval. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 21:39:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I asserted that there is an obligation to promote general welfare and one of the tools prescribed is the regulation of foreign trade. |
Wait, wait, wait. You're opposed to regulation of internal American trade because you think the free market provides a better alternative to government intrusion, yet you're for regulation of foreign trade to the point where you think it's okay for the Federal Government to dictate to Americans which foreigners they can buy stuff from? Does that sum up your position accurately?
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For the most part, Yes. Little in life is 100%.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 21:42:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Oh, by the way Jerome. You have five threads going now. Don't start any new ones until at least a couple of those have run their course. If you really want to start a topic before then, send it to me or Dave for approval.
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I just get excited, sorry.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Fakery Turns Fatal: China...
