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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 06/14/2007 : 09:04:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Cune, the American constitution does not establish either democracy or capitalism.
Your retort once again is built on a false premise.
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I'd say that it establishes democracy. You know, elected officials and whatnot.
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Republic
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2007 : 09:08:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Jerome wrote: | Current American government exhibits all of the traits of a communist state to varying degrees that would lead anyone unencumbered by years of propaganda to conclude that America is a communistic state. |
So now the reason we disagree with your claim that the USA "exhibits all the traits of a communist state to varying degrees" - meaning it is a de facto communist state - is because we are encumbered by years of propaganda, but you are not. This is just insulting. Most of the people on this forum many hold opinions that are radically different from what they were raised to believe.
Please name 3 examples (specific ones) of propaganda that has so encumbered our critical thinking abilities.
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Communism is inherently evil.
America is a Democracy.
These two are enough to produce a thinking that does not allow one to entertain the idea that America is communistic.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2007 : 10:00:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Cune, the American constitution does not establish either democracy or capitalism.
Your retort once again is built on a false premise.
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I'd say that it establishes democracy. You know, elected officials and whatnot.
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Republic
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Ugh. Yes, we are a republic. I was using he broader definition of democracy to mean simply a government type featuring periodic free elections by the people. Under this broad government type come various forms of government, including the Republic which is the United States of America. Either way, it misses my point (surprise). I could argue that any nation with a "well-regulated militia" is a Republic. It's a worthless argument though-- just as worthless as claiming that any nation with free public education is by definition partly communist. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2007 : 18:44:14 [Permalink]
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Cune, your point about "well regulated militia" is not valid as that phrase is not in a document that defines republic. It is a characteristic of a particular republic.
When a nation acts as a defined term it is that defined term; it does not matter what it is called. That is why I used de facto.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2007 : 19:53:44 [Permalink]
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Ricky, Ahh, but you are not old enough to remember the cold war. Think of it in the same way terrorism is spoken of today.
Democracy: government by the people; especially : rule of the majority
Republic: a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2007 : 10:11:43 [Permalink]
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I'd like to return to the "public education" argument, since I have neglected some important points in my argument. One important point is that while we have free public education, a parent isn't required to send her or his child to that school. Indeed, private-- even religious-- education is also an option, as is homeschooling.
It's difficult to imagine a Sidwell Friends in 1950's Moscow, or that Marx would favor a Sacred Heart for his communist ideal.
Again, saying that the notion of "free public schools" is communist, and then trying to say that our public schools in the United States makes this country partially communist simply fails as it is but a superficial comparison. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2007 : 18:42:09 [Permalink]
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Cune, most people have to use public schools as the economics of paying for two schools when only using one are difficult for most families.
Free public schools is a tenet of communism. Pretend as you might, but free public schooling is communist.
Do you really think there are not two tiers of schooling in communist states. Do you think Soviet leaders sent their children to the same schools as the factory workers?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2007 : 18:59:30 [Permalink]
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I asked Jerome to give examples of propaganda in the USA, and he responded with: Communism is inherently evil.
America is a Democracy. |
OK, clearly my request was misunderstood. I didn't want examples of just messages, I wanted examples of how this supposed propaganda is spread. Where is it coming from? Who spreads it? Who are the people/institutions that form this propaganda machine. During red China they actually had a real centralized propaganda machine that pumped out explicit posters, banners, and other media that was all intentionally and specifically made to promote Mao's communism. What is the propaganda machine in the USA?
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2007 : 19:19:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
I asked Jerome to give examples of propaganda in the USA, and he responded with: Communism is inherently evil.
America is a Democracy. |
OK, clearly my request was misunderstood. I didn't want examples of just messages, I wanted examples of how this supposed propaganda is spread. Where is it coming from? Who spreads it? Who are the people/institutions that form this propaganda machine. During red China they actually had a real centralized propaganda machine that pumped out explicit posters, banners, and other media that was all intentionally and specifically made to promote Mao's communism. What is the propaganda machine in the USA?
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Mainstream political speech---initiation
Mainstream media conglomerations---dissemination
Hollywood---emotion
This is not to say these group are in perfect adherence to the message. Only that this is the track that propaganda flows.
Do remember, politicians create the topics through their actions. Media needs politicians for information to resell that information. Hollywood sells what people are buying.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2007 : 21:48:26 [Permalink]
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Yuri Bezmenov former KGB agents explains how communism has been educated into the American public without their knowledge; and even with the facts presented of America as communistic it is denied.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE8MCSu_K-A
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2007 : 23:28:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Yuri Bezmenov former KGB agents explains how communism has been educated into the American public without their knowledge; and even with the facts presented of America as communistic it is denied. |
Actually, Jerome, Bezmenov was talking about you and your demoralized bretheren. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 05:17:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Cune, most people have to use public schools as the economics of paying for two schools when only using one are difficult for most families. |
Jerome, plenty of people go to private schools. And religious and other private schools often have fellowships and scholarships for those who might otherwise not be able to afford it.
| Free public schools is a tenet of communism. Pretend as you might, but free public schooling is communist. |
Don't you get all high and mighty when other people try to pull the "I'm right, period" argument on you? Why are you allowed to do that, here?
| Do you really think there are not two tiers of schooling in communist states. Do you think Soviet leaders sent their children to the same schools as the factory workers? |
How is this at all relevant? |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 05:53:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Free public schools is a tenet of communism. Pretend as you might, but free public schooling is communist. |
More research has demonstrated how utterly wrong you are in this assertion. Apparently, the idea that there should be free public education goes back to Jefferson and earlier. I hate lifting out-of-context quotes from the internet without having studied the matter further, but according to this site, Jefferson, in his autobiography, argued for| three distinct grades of education, reaching all classes. 1. Elementary schools for all children generally, rich and poor. 2. Colleges for a middle degree of instruction, calculated for the common purposes of life and such as should be desirable for all who were in easy circumstances. And 3d. an ultimate grade for teaching the sciences generally and in their highest degree... The expenses of [the elementary] schools should be borne by the inhabitants of the county, every one in proportion to his general tax-rate. This would throw on wealth the education of the poor. |
Again, I wish I had the context of this, and perhaps I'll run down to the library in a bit to get his autobiography (from where this is said to have been taken) and get further confirmation.
However, we can still find other data which strongly suggests an early ideal for free education long before Marx and his Manifesto. For instance, the Pennsylvania Constitution of 1776, in Section 44, clearly states that| A school or schools shall be established in each county by the legislature, for the convenient instruction of youth, with such salaries to the masters paid by the public, as may enable them to instruct youth at low prices: And all useful learning shall be duly encouraged and promoted In one or more universities. |
The Vermont Constitution of 1786 notes in Section XXXVIII:| Laws for the encouragement of virtue, and prevention of vice and immorality, ought to be constantly kept in force, and duly executed; and a competent number of schools ought to be maintained in each town for the convenient instruction of youth; and one or more grammar schools be incorporated, and properly supported in each county in this State. |
There are other examples, but I think this will suffice. Since you often interpret things in the opposite way from what is meant, I'll spell this out for you even if the rest of the readers here get it. The Communist Manifesto was published in 1848. Your argument has always been that because the Manifesto calls for public education, that any government which also has public education must also be communist. However, as the above examples show, arguments for having free public education predate Marx by decades, if not more, and prominent Colonial figures such as Thomas Jefferson advocated such a thing. Moreover, early state constitutions such as the ones I note above call for the creation of public schools to be supported by the state.
I think it is clear that you've lost this argument. While public education was obviously a tenet of communism as listed in your first post, it was not something unique to communism, and has a long history before Marx ever formulated his ideas. |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 06/16/2007 05:54:56 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 06:23:02 [Permalink]
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It seems that lots of people think that educating the populace is a basic function of government, like health care or defense.
That the Founding Fathers and Marx had such a thing in common makes the U.S. "communistic" like breathing air makes humans reptilian. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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USA is a De facto communist state
