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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 07/03/2007 : 10:40:28 [Permalink]
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What do you suggest we do with the criminals until the education and health care reforms kick in?
Also poor people and people of color are not locked up, criminals are locked up. Who has gone to jail for being poor or black?
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Well, you didn't answer my question, you just asked more. Look at the statistics. Look at drugwarfacts.com.
Yes, many people cop a plea who have done nothing, just to get on with their lives. Just because they do not have the ability to fight both the public defender's office, and the prosecutor.
Many people have broken some drug law or another, but this is a medical problem, not a criminal problem. And again, if you look at the statistics, people of color are arrested more, when arrested are convicted more, and when convicted are given harsher sentences.
Now, as to dangerous people, we either have to admit that we don't know what to do with them and keep them away from society, or figure out how to treat them, or both.
When we do lock someone up, we have to also remember that this doesn't just affect one person. It affects many people.
What we often do is punish people just for some vague emotional satisfaction of punishing someone, not because there is any evidence that it's better for society. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 10:51:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
If there is no ability to have a secure vote with electronic voting, why does it matter who votes? |
So you'd rather scrap the entire system than return to using tracable paper ballots. I get it.
Sweden is more computer literate than America, but we still use paper ballots. Because it works. If it ain't broken, don't fix it.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 12:11:23 [Permalink]
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19552808/
Here's a quick, would you pass the U.S. Citizenship test, test. I pass and I was born here, but my 6 other personalities are Cuban. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 12:20:43 [Permalink]
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You answered 100% of questions correctly.
Yea for me! |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 12:26:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
| Also poor people and people of color are not locked up, criminals are locked up. Who has gone to jail for being poor or black? |
Your kidding right? Just beacuse the paperwork doesnt say 'Guilty of being Black' doesnt mean this doesnt happen frequently.
Heres some telling data for you.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=539#Fig.%207
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All of the people in the study were convicted of a crime. They were not in jail for being poor or black. More black people get sentenced to death than others but that is one more reason to outlaw the death penalty in my book. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 12:31:13 [Permalink]
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So what your saying is that as long as the paperwork doesnt say "Guilty of being black" then there are no people who were prosecuted for being black, got it.
I'm going to go talk to my walls now. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 12:44:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
So what your saying is that as long as the paperwork doesnt say "Guilty of being black" then there are no people who were prosecuted for being black, got it.
I'm going to go talk to my walls now.
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Have a good conversation. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 12:51:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
| Now, as to dangerous people, we either have to admit that we don't know what to do with them and keep them away from society, or figure out how to treat them, or both. |
I agree
| When we do lock someone up, we have to also remember that this doesn't just affect one person. It affects many people. |
I agree, but do not put the blame on me or scoiety when someone get locked up for committing a crime. It does affect others but that was thier choice. If someone is convicted wrongly then society owes them and their families something.
We need to be proactive and fix societies problems before children become criminals. But there is the problem of how to deal with current criminals. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 13:21:38 [Permalink]
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| If someone is convicted wrongly then society owes hem and their families something. |
No, it isn't the family's choice. They did not choose high telephone rates to speak to their loved one. They did not choose travel costs to visit their loved one. They did not choose the loss of a father's income, etc.
This is punishing the families and friends as well. They did not choose that. This should be used sparingly. Prisoners do better when their families keep in contact with them. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 13:22:52 [Permalink]
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Ricky said:
| I'm going to ignore that you tried to sweep my entire argument under the rug by calling it emotional. I'm going to ignore the fact that you said I had logic fallacies yet when called on it you refuse to present such. |
If you insist....
| At this point, I'm really surprised, afraid, and horrified. |
Emotional response.
| What you talk about is society controlling those who commit crimes. |
Unevidenced opinion.
| We're in the 21st century. |
False appeal to.... the calander? / red herring. What does the current century have to do with anything?
| Fear mongering should be a thing of the past. |
"Do you still beat your wife?" It isn't fear mongering, and no one cares what your opinion of "should be" is, in a debate that is supposed to be over the alleged "harm" of flogging as punishment for crimes.
| Governments should not scare their people into behaving. |
False conclusion based on a premise that you have yet to establish as true, that flogging is "fear mongering".
| I am really appalled that you think this should be the case. |
More emotional response.
| Because this is trying to control society by instilling fear in them. |
False conclusion based on an unestablished premise.
| It is the equivalent of Hell on earth. |
False analogy and a serious dose of emotional hyperbole.
You trying to scare people by beating them is no difference the the Christian church scaring little boys not to pull on their weenies because if they do, they'll go to Hell or become blind.
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False attribution of motive combined with a bit of ad hom.
I have little interest in speculating how our society would react to such drastic changes. But who is suggesting that we remove all adverse consequences? Certainly not I. This is a red herring at best, and a straw man at worst.
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A pure fabrication on your part, full-on straw-man. I never suggested, nor did I imply, that anyone was advocating the removal of "all" adverse consequences for crime. You have removed the question I asked you from its context, entirely.
| That people in history who have violated the law have been treated brutally and that crime still existed? |
More straw-men. You claimed that flogging and other such punishment didn't effect crime. I directed you to statistics on crime for countries that use such punishment, to demonstrate that those countries have a much lower crime rate than the US (and other western democracies). I never claimed than all crime was, or could be, eliminated.
| Societies are complex things, as are the reasons behind why someone commits crime. You can't honestly be attributing the difference in crime rates just to how severe the punishments punishments are. |
Yet another straw-man. I said there was a correlation, never did I attribute it "just" to the severity of the punishments.
I notice your lack of response to one of the most widely accepted theories of moral developement, and the underlying premise that this developement is based on successive stages, one built atop the other, and that fear of consequences is one of the bottom stages that all higher stages rest upon.
You are obviously to emotionally invested in this to have a rational conversation about it. So put down your fake outrage and get back to me when you decide to leave the emotion and fallacy behind.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 13:37:37 [Permalink]
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But I didn't really want to go this route in this thread, because now you will feel the need to defend yourself, and will try to claim that you are not emotional and not using logical fallacy, and there will be no discussion about the topic at hand.
But whatever....
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 13:52:32 [Permalink]
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Saying that (pubic display or not, of) flogging is fear mongering seems a bit hypocritical to me.
One of the basic premisis of law enforcement is that the guilty party is punished for his crime. In many cases, there are correlations between abiding the law and the severity of punishment.
Last summer, the speeding tickets were more than doubled in Sweden. There was much publicity about it, and the very day the new rates became effective, there was a significant drop in cases of speeding.
The severity and kind of punishment for infractions does matter, and have an impact on crime rate.
Another thing about floging is that the punishment is absolute.
a $3000 ticket for a drunk driving is very severe on a single mother of two children, but is a spit in the ocean for a medium sized company CEO. As such, the effect of the punishment becomes very relative. The effect is that the CEO can affort many such incidents and just pays is off, as if nothing happened, since he have no reason to fear the punishment.
A flogging on the other hand would make him think more than twice about it.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 14:06:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
| Also poor people and people of color are not locked up, criminals are locked up. Who has gone to jail for being poor or black? |
Your kidding right? Just beacuse the paperwork doesnt say 'Guilty of being Black' doesnt mean this doesnt happen frequently.
Heres some telling data for you.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=539#Fig.%207
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All of the people in the study were convicted of a crime. They were not in jail for being poor or black. More black people get sentenced to death than others but that is one more reason to outlaw the death penalty in my book.
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I agree with Robb about scraping the death penalty. Are no serious crimes commited in places were there is a death penalty? And if you are wrongly convicted, executed and afterwards evidence shows up showing you were innocent? What then?
And floggins? My brother wouldn't give a shit if he got flogged, he used to get flogged every weekend playing rugby. Often coming back from a game with his skull opened or his teeth lose. Do you honestly think that people like him woul give a rat's ass about being flogged? In Argentina petty thieves get a good flogging (illegaly) from the cops. Guess what? they don't give a shit. They'll go on with the thieving and snatching.
I thinks it that through history has been shown that flogging and death penalty are not really good deterrents.
cheers
perrodetokio
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"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 14:12:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Saying that (pubic display or not, of) flogging is fear mongering seems a bit hypocritical to me.
One of the basic premisis of law enforcement is that the guilty party is punished for his crime. In many cases, there are correlations between abiding the law and the severity of punishment.
Last summer, the speeding tickets were more than doubled in Sweden. There was much publicity about it, and the very day the new rates became effective, there was a significant drop in cases of speeding.
The severity and kind of punishment for infractions does matter, and have an impact on crime rate.
Another thing about floging is that the punishment is absolute.
a $3000 ticket for a drunk driving is very severe on a single mother of two children, but is a spit in the ocean for a medium sized company CEO. As such, the effect of the punishment becomes very relative. The effect is that the CEO can affort many such incidents and just pays is off, as if nothing happened, since he have no reason to fear the punishment.
A flogging on the other hand would make him think more than twice about it.
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On the other hand flogging some old lady will have a different effect than flogging a 300 pound musclebuilder, wouldn't it? |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 14:17:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
I was joking about pillories and floggings. I wasn't about executions. They have no deterrent effect if they are not public.
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Maybe, when I was in the Navy we stopped in Jedda Saudi Arabia for 5 days. They have public executions there a couple times a month by beheading. I got the opportunity to go and see one. The people there made it clear to us what this man did and wanted us to know how they serve justice there. He sexually molested four boys. After questioning the people there a little more they said that crime is low in that city but most of the executions are for murders and sexual abuse of children or raping adults. There are some crimes that there is no deterant for even public executions.
Another observation was that the crowd seemed bloodthirsty. Only men showed up and many with their sons on their necks. Most were cheering as the man was beheaded. I want no part of that here in this country. I wish that I had decided not to go.
No doubt that violent criminals need to be punished but we as the US need act to a higher standard. All the talk of flogging, public executions and the like is appalling and not fit for the US. To say flogging or any form of executions are not cruel punishment is insane. I think actual life in prison is cruel enough for these criminals.
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Since public executions aren't likely in the near future, the effect would be to stop the death penalty being called a deterrent and calling it financially expedient.
Also, The societal climate in Saudi is a lot different here in the states. Reports of executions in the paper is impersonal and has no impact to the thug on the street. After a while, it becomes a mere recital of numbers. I think that if they were made public, you would have public outcry denouncing it as a punishment method and some deterrent effect. Making it a carnival with host whipping the crowd into a moral outrage doesn't act as a deterrent but acts instead as entertainment. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Requirement for Citizenship?
