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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
 Posted - 07/03/2007 : 15:52:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by perrodetokio
...if you are wrongly convicted...afterwards evidence shows up showing you were innocent? What then?... |
I haven't noticed this question much during all this talk of flogging, nevertheless, hypothetically - if public flogging was standard practice within the law, what happens when someone is falsely accused and convicted? (And eventually it would happen.) If it were me, I would be extremely pissed. The Indian side of me would be on the surface and someone would deservedly get scalped. It would turn me antisocial. In fact I wouldn't stand for it even before it took place, resulting in violence.
One remedy, if someone is falsely flogged; the judge, jury and spectators must also be flogged and all their bank accounts and assets emptied and transferred to the victim.
Seriously though, I suspect this glee in some of posters here for the physical punishment of offenders reveals their own repressed anger and frustration at society and a tacit desire to scapegoat social problems onto whatever bad guys come along.
It's a complex issue because I can't deny that emotionally there are crimes that deserve severe punishment.
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 16:04:06 [Permalink]
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Seriously though, I suspect this glee in some of posters here for the physical punishment of offenders reveals their own repressed anger and frustration at society and a tacit desire to scapegoat social problems onto whatever bad guys come along.
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This desire for punishment seems to be purely an emotional response. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 18:39:53 [Permalink]
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Val said:
Since public executions aren't likely in the near future, the effect would be to stop the death penalty being called a deterrent and calling it financially expedient.
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It costs more to execute a prisoner, in the US, than it does to keep them in jail for life. So much for that idea.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 18:44:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
You answered 100% of questions correctly.
Yea for me!
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55% for me. I admit a few of my answers were absolute guesses.
Mind you, I'm not, and have never been a US citizen. I've spent about 2 weeks in the US for work reasons. Is 50% the pass mark? (The site says: "word is, the INS is looking for an 80 percent score.")
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John's just this guy, you know. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 19:03:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Val said:
Since public executions aren't likely in the near future, the effect would be to stop the death penalty being called a deterrent and calling it financially expedient.
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It costs more to execute a prisoner, in the US, than it does to keep them in jail for life. So much for that idea.
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The other way to call it is revenge. Or putting down a rabid human. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 19:05:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19552808/
Here's a quick, would you pass the U.S. Citizenship test, test. I pass and I was born here, but my 6 other personalities are Cuban.
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100%, but I do admit I guessed on the INS document question.
Yeaa, a gnome can be a citizen!
I also wavered on whether New Zealand was one of the first colonies.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 19:06:53 [Permalink]
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The state should never kill citizens.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 19:21:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19552808/
Here's a quick, would you pass the U.S. Citizenship test, test. I pass and I was born here, but my 6 other personalities are Cuban.
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95% But I do pay attention to US history and current politics. Only one I missed was what the naturalization form was. My family arrived before there was a United States of America. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 22:25:02 [Permalink]
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| 95% for me too. I missed the same one Dave missed. I have to admit though, I guessed on a couple... One right and one wrong. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 23:33:03 [Permalink]
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Val said:
| The other way to call it is revenge. Or putting down a rabid human. |
Yeah.
We could also call it a stupid and pointless practice that accomplishes nothing.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2007 : 00:20:20 [Permalink]
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Damn, I missed this conversation while in hiding for a couple weeks! Sort of glad I missed most of it. I find this to be one of the most distasteful conversations on SFN that I've ever seen.
Robb wrote: | The only requirement should be is that they are a US citizen. It should not matter what someone does with their right to vote. If someone wants to vote for a candidate becasue of their hair color, so be it. I would not support any legislation that curbed the right to vote to any citizen. I also do not support the fact that criminals cannot vote in most states. |
And Kil wrote: I think the chance for abuse of any testing procedure to determine eligibility to vote is not worth the risk. We saw this with literacy tests. Perhaps those are a drastic example, but the lesson should be clear.
As for the woefully undereducated, that does not necessarily equate to a lack of common sense and the ability to choose a representative who would best serve your area and your interests…
I wouldn't go there. |
And I completely agree with every word.
BPSmurf wrote: | I am well aware of the various efforts to subdue the black-undereducated vote in the south of the U.S. -Does this mean that no merit based system should ever be tried because some blacks may have never learned to read or that group X was oppressed so many years ago?? I dont give a shit what color you are, if you are a moron, I dont want you voting for my leaders. I dont care if prisoners vote, I dont care if religious assholes vote, but I expect you to be able to tie your own shoes before being givin a registration card. |
The system you vaguely suggest is arbitrary. And since it is so vague, it actually cries for someone to come in and design a test for competency. As a teacher who has to deal with the idiocy of standardized tests, and who is well aware of different kinds of intelligence, I'd love to know what sort of test of competency would be designed, and by who? Unless you literally meant that someone should be able to tie their shoes, which I doubt. I suppose if you were serious, we'd then have to have a separate test for physically handicapped people who can't tie their shoes for reasons unrelated to their intelligence?
Anyone who can't tie their shoes for reasons of mental feebleness also can't fill out a registration card, so it seems the test of competency is already there. If you can fill out a registration card and get yourself to the voting station at the proper place and time and day, what else should you need to prove?
BTW, I can't even name all 50 states, much less their capitals, and I have a Masters degree and an IQ of about 140.
As for flogging, I think that's a really dumb idea, and I'll hold to that position until I see some hard evidence that it would work better. It seems the deterrent is supposed to work through humiliation, but I could easily see young men in the inner city turning it into a badge of honor. Lots of them already regard going to prison as almost a right of passage. There is no assurance that it would work the way officials intended it to work, and the potential for outrage and further emphasizes class differences and other problems is so great, I see no good argument for trying this out.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2007 : 07:08:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Not kidding.
Public flogging, in controlled conditions, monitored by medical professionals, is (IMO) a fantastic idea for adult criminals who commit serious but non-violent crimes.
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I am more of an indentured servitude type person for non-violent folks....... Penal colooes for the scumbags.....
I could probably go for flogging..... |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2007 : 07:16:13 [Permalink]
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Man 6 pages befoe I notoce it....
Conditions for sufferage:
1) Public service of some sort after high school. Almost anyone could do something.
2) Civice exam with passing score. Anybody who cares to prep should be able to pass it |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2007 : 12:06:22 [Permalink]
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| 1) Public service of some sort after high school. Almost anyone could do something. |
I would only accept this if the public service time required no pre-conditions. In other words, if someone is a HS drop out and never got their diploma, they can still do their service to become a full citizen once they are 18. If someone has a severe disability, has done time in juvenile detention, whatever it may be that limits them - so long as they are free and willing to do their service, they should be given that opportunity, period.
| 2) Civice exam with passing score. Anybody who cares to prep should be able to pass it |
I just love it when people so casually write crap like this. Who decides what goes on the exam? What do you think should be on the exam? How do we ensure that alternative test-taking measures for people with learning disabilities are equal? If "anyone who cares to prep" can pass it, how could it possibly have any meaning? What is the point of creating one more hoop for people to jump through? Voting should be kept as simple as possible. Same day registration should be available in every state as it is in Minnesota (of course Republicans don't like that 'cause it gets more young people and other new voters to vote more often, and those people tend to not vote Republican) If you can get your ass to the voting booth and have a clear enough mind to know what the hell you are there for, you are "smart" enough to vote, period!
Tests for voting are just a plain shitty idea. I say this as both a teacher and as someone who has looked at the history of tests for voting in America.
Any limitations on representation for people who live in a nation bothers me. The vote is such a small thing for an individual, but powerful in the hands of the masses. It bothers me when ex-convicts are stripped of their right to vote, because who is more affected by the system of government than a convict? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Requirement for Citizenship?
