|
|
|
moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
 Posted - 09/19/2007 : 04:11:47 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
A U.S. Senator watching police tazer a college student for asking an uncomfortable question would be tyranny.
|
I thought that there was another thread for this. A thread where you were getting it handed to you for missing a big part of the story. Another person might have admitted their mistake and perhaps have been a little embarrassed. Not you. Your choice, though. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
 |
|
|
Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2007 : 07:06:19 [Permalink]
|
Well Gorgo, What makes Clinton and Bush criminals?
Ok Tyrant
Ceaucescu was a tyrant. The Taliban were tyrants. The Juntas of Argentina were tyrants, Pinochet was a tyrant, Idi Amin was tyrant, Franco was tyrant. Baby Doc Duvallier, Mugabe, etc.....
Chavez's political actions with the presidency, constitution, consolidation of power and refusal to allow opposition show he is a tyrant.
BTW - What is Chavez's relationship to the FARC?
I don't trust him. I don't trust any leader who can set him or her self up for president for life or can rule by decree |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2007 : 07:13:37 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Rubicon95
Well Gorgo, What makes Clinton and Bush criminals?
Ok Tyrant
Ceaucescu was a tyrant. The Taliban were tyrants. The Juntas of Argentina were tyrants, Pinochet was a tyrant, Idi Amin was tyrant, Franco was tyrant. Baby Doc Duvallier, Mugabe, etc.....
Chavez's political actions with the presidency, constitution, consolidation of power and refusal to allow opposition show he is a tyrant.
BTW - What is Chavez's relationship to the FARC?
I don't trust him. I don't trust any leader who can set him or her self up for president for life or can rule by decree
|
Would you say that President Sarkozy and Prime Minister Sarkozy are tyrants because they could conceivably remain in office for life?
Where has Chavez refused to allow opposition? He's had plenty of opposition. The media in Venezuela is owned by the opposition.
Tell me what his relationship is with the FARC, and how that makes him a tyrant.
As to Clinton and Bush, and most other presidents, they have aggressively attacked other countries. That makes them international criminals. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
| Edited by - Gorgo on 09/19/2007 07:21:04 |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2007 : 07:20:26 [Permalink]
|
I think what you are missing here, is that Chavez can rule by decree, in certain areas, with the permission of the National Assembly with certain limitations. That is legal, and makes sense. There are things that a President of the U.S. can legally do "by decree" as well.
|
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2007 : 09:36:16 [Permalink]
|
| The State needs to control the schools in order to shape the minds of children into minds of good citizens. The issue comes down to what a "good citizen" is and who gets to make that determination. |
-Chaloobi
|
|
|
|
Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2007 : 11:29:41 [Permalink]
|
To my knowledge their is nothing in the French constitution that would allow Sarkozy to rule by decree. And yeah I would consider him a tyrant if he could do that for life.
I am not mistaken on the rule by decree (Enabling Law)in the Venezuelan Constitution. Other Venezuelan president have used it but other Venezuelan presidents weren't imprisoned first for starting a military coup and trying to incite a revolution.
Also his use of the enabling law is to push his view of socialism on the populace.
Let him propose, let the assembly debate, let the people (the populace) decide where they want Venezuela to go.
As far as the legality of the law, yeah it was written in their constitution as Apartheid was in South Africa. Did that make apartheid legal?
The FARC in Venezuela
And it makes sense both Chavez and FARC have the same goal, the spread of THEIR brand of socialism.
Scroll down on this link to blunders.
Since you think that rule by decree is ok and the US constitution allows it, via executive order I assume, are you Ok with Bush can rule by decree? After all in your arguement it is legal
Your wrong on the media in Venezuela. I am assuming by your statement that you did not mean ALL of the Media, right???? Telesur is not actually in the opposition camp. And RCTV did not get it's license renewed because it was for the coup that tried to remove Chavez. Oddly enough Chavez was pardoned for his coup attempt. Why didn't he extend the same courtesy them?
He can do and preach whatever he wants in state sponsored schools to create his new citizens. They did that back with Richelieu. But what he is doing now with private schools is wrong! |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2007 : 11:46:26 [Permalink]
|
I don't know, Rubicon, you seem to have twisted some things so far that I can't see what you're trying to say.
Chavez was given a limited ability to change certain things by decree. An elected official was given the right by an elected body to carry out certain functions. That is hardly tyranny. Please get some perspective on the issue. This hardly measures up to George Bush's crimes.
No, I did not say ALL media, and I did not mean all media. Imagine what would happen in the U.S. if the media worked constantly for the overthrow of the elected govenment. Would Bush do more than refuse to renew a TV license?
Again, I don't know that I agree that private schools shouldn't be allowed to lie to their students, but he did not change that be decree, did he? Why not? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
|
|
Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2007 : 12:00:58 [Permalink]
|
Are you telling me the non-renewal of RCTV was to promote democracy?
Better yet. Give me a Venezuelan media outlet that is an outspoken critic of Chavez and I'll believe you. |
|
|
|
Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2007 : 12:44:12 [Permalink]
|
You want names?
http://mondediplo.com/2002/08/10venezuela
After Chávez came to power in 1998, the five main privately owned channels - Venevisión, Radio Caracas Televisión (RCTV), Globovisión and CMT - and nine of the 10 major national newspapers, including El Universal, El Nacional, Tal Cual, El Impulso, El Nuevo País, and El Mundo, have taken over the role of the traditional political parties, which were damaged by the president's electoral victories. Their monopoly on information has put them in a strong position. They give the opposition support, only rarely reporting government statements and never mentioning its large majority, despite that majority's confirmation at the ballot box. They have always described the working class districts as a red zone inhabited by dangerous classes of ignorant people and delinquents. No doubt considering them unphotogenic, they ignore working class leaders and organisations.
Their investigations, interviews and commentaries all pursue the same objective: to undermine the legitimacy of the government and to destroy the president's popular support. "In aesthetic terms, this revolutionary government is a cesspit," was the delicate phrase used by the evening paper Tal Cual. Its editor, Teodoro Petkoff, is a keen opponent of Chávez. Petkoff is a former Marxist guerrilla who became a neo-liberal and a pro-privatisation minister in the government of rightwing president Rafael Caldera. The Chávez government is not, of course, above criticism. It makes mistakes, and the civilian and military personnel who surround it are tainted by corruption. But the government was democratically elected and still has the backing of the majority. It can also be credited with successes, nationally and internationally. |
|
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2007 : 13:19:43 [Permalink]
|
Yeah right. Remind me of that when Venevision, Globovision, Televen also don't have there licenses renewed...legally.
and only TeleSur (I want my Chavez-TV)
Thanks Gorgo.. I've really enjoyed this.... |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2007 : 15:58:45 [Permalink]
|
Yeah, well, Rube, I think instead of saying that Chavez is a tyrant, you're afraid he's going to become one. That may be true. However, he is elected, and the elected Assembly gave him the powers that you are worried about. He did not create the laws that allowed him to forego renewal of TV licenses. Which, by the way, did not shut down the TV station. They still broadcast on cable and satellite.
So, yes, let us know when he becomes a tyrant, and let us know when he becomes anywhere near the criminal that our president, and former presidents are. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2007 : 17:00:46 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by chaloobi
The State needs to control the schools in order to shape the minds of children into minds of good citizens. The issue comes down to what a "good citizen" is and who gets to make that determination.
|
You really think the state NEEDS to shape the minds of the citizens?
This is crazy thought.
The state will develop the means to accomplish this task if allowed by the citizens. The problem comes when the state is run by a tyrant in the future and the system for "shaping the minds" of the children has been previously established.
This ideas almost guarantees massive abuse at some point. Governments and societies change all the time, and sometimes overnight. How do you remedy this idea of state controlled indoctrination with the assurance that a some point a despot will rule.
|
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
|
|
 |
|
SPREADING ACADEMIC FREEDOM
