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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
 Posted - 11/08/2007 : 08:39:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I think the current reality is the opposite. Much of the government serves at the pleasure of corporate, or corporate associated, constituencies.
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I agree, and that's the problem. What I meant was that corporate charters come fromt the state, and should exist only if they have some benefit to the public beyond that of a short-term profit seeking enterprise.
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Unfortunately all too much of American culture has, for all practical purposes, become a short-term profit seeking enterprise. I see more and more of the ethic reflected in the question "What other reason is there to do anything?" Why explore Mars if you can't make any money doing it? Why support the National Endowment for the Arts? Most of that art doesn't make any money. Why study the origins of the universe? That research will almost certainly come to nothing in terms of profit. Why legislate universal health care? There is no money to be made providing health care to the working poor. It's crazy. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 11/08/2007 08:43:28 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 13:22:46 [Permalink]
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Dude, Gorgo, Chaloobi.....
How can we get more people involved in this discussion? Controversy, maybe? Challenge to the billscott mentality? Folks that are known political junkies? I am truly passionate about this subject because I have never in my long life seen a situation as serious as what we have with this current administration and Congress.
Both will change after the '08 election, that's for sure, but the same corporate and individual power and money brokers will still be exerting their enormous influence on whomever is elected. My personal belief is that we have a somewhat better chance with a Democratic President and Congress, than we do with any kind of mixed bag (the congressional bag has to be 2/3 full!)
With respect to a third party, I have no doubt that this would be by far the best solution to moderate or even eliminate many of the vested interest forces that are unduly influencing things today!
However, I do not think that it is a pragmatic approach to this election. I don't think that "we" (rational citizens) can take a chance on ANY Republican candidate getting elected if there is any possibllity of preventing it!
Those who are really passionate about a third party could argue that we have to open the door sometime, as Ross Perot did in 1992 (19% of the pop vote), and 1996 (8% of the pop vote). And maybe, for the chance to win it in 2012, it would be worth suffering another four years of neocon, corporate, and billionaire rule. I don't know if the World can endure it! And, selfishly, I really don't expect to be around much longer than that and I really would like to see things turn around a bit before I shuffle off to eternity! |
| Edited by - bngbuck on 11/08/2007 13:43:45 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 14:46:06 [Permalink]
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I, myself, really do not have anything to complain about.
Other than the big elephant that is The United States, in the small corral that is the world.
When the elephant its drops stinking shit, everybody notice, and when it starts throwing its weight around, no one wants to be in the way.
If USA can't stop dictating policies for leaders outside its border, I would happily see your country self destruct sooner rather than later. The Neo-Con at the helm seems to be doing a fairly good job with that.
If, on the other hand, good decent democracy- and peace-loving Americans starts thinking about setting good examples, then I'm all for it. When I grew up, I thought America was awesome. That was when I was young and naïve in the seventies and early eighties, when the Soviet Union was the epitome of Evil, and America stood up as "the good guys". I was too young an innocent to believe that USA was fighting just as dirty as the Soviets.
What if America could reclaim the throne of being the "worlds greatest country" again?
Setting the standard of moral and ethical behaviour?
Right now, USA and George Bush is navigating its way among Iran and North Korea.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 14:50:36 [Permalink]
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Here is another thought.
We need some billionaire philanthropist to start a law and political science school dedicated to restoring reality and fact-based policy to the US. Educate a couple thousand people in law who all think that government policy needs to be based on evidence, and needs to be changed when new evidence shows the old policy to be flawed.
Set them loose upon the media, start up a think-tank that offers policy advice, start a massive public education effort (internet, radio, tv, etc) to help the average person understand exactly why you can't wage war on concepts or behaviors (terror, drugs, to name a few) with your military. You have to fight those battles in the minds of people.
Start a cable news channel that refuses to engage in arguments about arguments, sticking only to arguments about facts and actions.
Hire a small army of language experts to combat the "spin" that dominates most political speech and news today.
All it would take is one person with enough cash to get it started and feed it until it could walk on its own, I think. I couldn't provide any evidence to support this, but I think there is a desire out there for something like this to exist. 50% or so of the US just simply doesn't bother voting. For many of them I think its because they don't feel that it is meaningfull to vote anymore. Its a shame when France can get 98% (I think I'm remembering that correctly) to the polls in a presidential election, and we get 50% on a good year.
Probably just wishful thinking on my part...
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 15:03:41 [Permalink]
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What if America could reclaim the throne of being the "worlds greatest country" again?
Setting the standard of moral and ethical behaviour?
Right now, USA and George Bush is navigating its way among Iran and North Korea.
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When was that, who (besides Americans) thought that and why did people think that? When did American regimes do anything different than what Bush is doing? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 15:11:31 [Permalink]
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Chaloobi......
You state (and ask):I'm 38 and I'm not as optimistic about change as you think. I offer specifics because I'm detail oriented and I've given this a lot of thought. Clearly the electoral system needs to be reformed in order to get political reform, but we have no significant political leadership interested in upending the current system. Indeed, the existing system is structured so that it's impossible for anyone interested in major reform to be elected . Without electoral reform there can be no political change. And without political change there will be no real social reform. We have to bust open this 2 party system to new and varying ideas or we will continue this socially backward slide.(bolding mine)
Are you really 79? |
With reference to the first bolded sentence above: It is perfectly possible if a candidate has a cleverly hidden agenda! Could Shrub have been elected if Rove and Cheney had instructed him to reveal the details of the neocon takeover plan in his 2004 campaign?
With respect to the second bolded sentence: I completely agree with your premise. I strongly feel it is extremely difficult, and should only be attempted after getting an administration with some semblance of Liberalism into office. Fight Hillary's second term with a powerful third party candidate! I would jump on that bandwagon if my legs would allow me! I'll sure let somebody pull me up on to it!
No, I am actually a very precocious 17 year old as someone suggested in my first adventure on these SFN forums. Actually, I truly was 79 years old on the 11th of last month. It's probably a combination of excellent medical attention and good genes. I am fortunate to have enough resource to afford the best health care available. And my mother lived to 99 years, 11 months and 362 days!
My brother is 93, a Republican, and still capable of some sorts of extended conversation,(although he never was the sharpest Buck knife in the drawer!)
Look at Randall Zwinge! he was 79 last August! And he can still burn the hair off your tail while simultaneously drilling you a brand new poop chute! Believe me, I know, having gotten into it more than once with the old man (older than me)! I deeply appreciate the complement, tho, Chaloobi!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 21:57:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
What if America could reclaim the throne of being the "worlds greatest country" again?
Setting the standard of moral and ethical behaviour?
Right now, USA and George Bush is navigating its way among Iran and North Korea.
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When was that, who (besides Americans) thought that and why did people think that? When did American regimes do anything different than what Bush is doing?
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Well, I was 5-12 years old at the time... Naïve enough to buy the American propaganda.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 22:33:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
And my mother lived to 99 years, 11 months and 362 days! |
Now I see what the problem is! bngbuck lives someplace where there are at least 363 days in a month. This sort of discrepancy - between our world and his - implies all sorts of bizarre incompatibilities with basic assumptions, leading to classic "talking past each other" miscommunications. 79 of his years could very well be three weeks to us. We've got to start over at a much more basic level...
Okay, Bill, what is one plus one?
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 00:42:09 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
What in the world is wrong with the fact that my mother lived 100 years, 10 months, and 27 days? You got a problem with that?
Smarty-pants, what time did she die? |
| Edited by - bngbuck on 11/09/2007 01:10:32 |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 06:01:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
With reference to the first bolded sentence above: It is perfectly possible if a candidate has a cleverly hidden agenda! Could Shrub have been elected if Rove and Cheney had instructed him to reveal the details of the neocon takeover plan in his 2004 campaign?
With respect to the second bolded sentence: I completely agree with your premise. I strongly feel it is extremely difficult, and should only be attempted after getting an administration with some semblance of Liberalism into office. Fight Hillary's second term with a powerful third party candidate! I would jump on that bandwagon if my legs would allow me! I'll sure let somebody pull me up on to it! |
It's not about a 3rd Party candidate. All Perot did in the 90's was spoil the Republican majority and allow Clinton to get elected, which is why people don't risk a 3rd party vote (run-off elections should fix that, btw). We need real election reform, not a one in a million crack in the existing two party monopoly. We need six or eight parties and we won't get there by a miracle independant president.
Actually, I truly was 79 years old on the 11th of last month. It's probably a combination of excellent medical attention and good genes. I am fortunate to have enough resource to afford the best health care available.
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Congratulations on your longevity and your sharpness of mind. It's got to be very rare for older folks to be comfortable enough with newer technology to be holding conversation in internet forums. It says a lot. |
-Chaloobi
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 11/09/2007 : 06:04:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Dave.....
What in the world is wrong with the fact that my mother lived 100 years, 10 months, and 27 days? You got a problem with that?
Smarty-pants, what time did she die? |
2:30 AM, the most inconvienent hour. I, being no spring chicken myself, plan on shambling away from Bethlehem at just that hour in order to give everybody one, last piss-off. Maybe I'll luck out and do it on the motorcycle, making it a messy, last piss-off.
But what's to do? The Bush years have been a disaster, exceeded by the Civil War, yes, but in context, not by as much as I'd like. I think that trusting industry to regulate itself was/is a huge mistake, the ENRON criminal conspiricy being a prime example. Unfortunatly, it is one that will be made again & again ad infinitum because it is industry that has all of the political cash to be doled out to the candidates that they favor, ie: those who won't regulate them. So campaign finance reform is a must-have (ain't gonna happen; industry won't allow it).
And for the above reason, it is unlikely that any third party will do any better than Perot, who had a goodish amount of cash of his own as well as charisma.
The Republicans whine endlessly about Big Government and yet federal sprawl increases with each of their administrations, particularly this one. The partial solution is to avoid electing Republicans. I'm Independant and I've stated that I'd no longer vote for a Republican even if the son-of-a-bitch walked on water. But that's just me; too many of us vote the party for no better reason than "Daddy done it that way & that's good enough for me!" Or they claim to be voting for "Family Values," whatever that might mean. And others have a single issue that dominates their votes. For example, I was one of the orginal Rolling Thunder riders, an event held every Memorial Day in DC. RT started out as an MIA protest, but after some years, it became partisian politically and the Missing in Action were all but forgotten. They became all about the Vietnam protestors, notably John Kerry, and those who avoided the VN draft. Last year, the leaders met with Bush, a real draft-dodger, much to my utter disgust. The hard-core gun nuts are pretty much the same, as are those seriously afflicted with religion.
The question is: how do you convince voters to cast their ballots in favor of the nation in general and not just for what suits their fancy? I must admit that I don't know, and I rather doubt that anyone does, really.
And the national media must shoulder a lot of the blame for the mess we're in, but here again, we have industry controlling the message.
What we too often fail to realize is that Democracy is not easy; not a yellow-brick road to the soft life. It requires effort to get it to work, and now it is going to need a lot more effort to repair ours.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 06:24:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Gorgo
What if America could reclaim the throne of being the "worlds greatest country" again?
Setting the standard of moral and ethical behaviour?
Right now, USA and George Bush is navigating its way among Iran and North Korea.
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When was that, who (besides Americans) thought that and why did people think that? When did American regimes do anything different than what Bush is doing?
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Well, I was 5-12 years old at the time... Naïve enough to buy the American propaganda.
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Well, yes, for about five minutes after I saw the twin towers fall, I thought maybe someone might learn something about what war is like, and what happens when you unleash a lot of stupidity on a group of people, but instead, everyone rallied around that Old Faithful military standard and screamed for the blood of some foreigners.
We need to forget about electing anyone in the White House that's going to fix anything, and start figuring out how world citizens can fix this. The U.S. government was never supposed to be about democracy, it was about, to paraphrase Madison, protecting the "minority of the opulent from the majority." |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 09:51:32 [Permalink]
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chaloobi said:
| It's not about a 3rd Party candidate. All Perot did in the 90's was spoil the Republican majority and allow Clinton to get elected, which is why people don't risk a 3rd party vote (run-off elections should fix that, btw). We need real election reform, not a one in a million crack in the existing two party monopoly. We need six or eight parties and we won't get there by a miracle independant president. |
Perot ruined his chance at being elected by stepping into and out of the race a couple of times.
He polled higher than either Bush or Clinton for a long time. After his "I'm in, no I'm out, no I'm in!" antics, and his accusation that "republican operatives" had disrupted his daughter's wedding, many people lost confidence in him.
I think there is a great desire in the US, by many people (even members of the two parties), to see a legit third party (or independent) candidate.
Bloomberg might have the potential to be a big spoiler for both political parties in '08 if he runs, gets a sensible runningmate (someone who has the perception of being centrist, Hagel seems to be the current fav for a bloomberg ticket), and conducts a solid campaign. He'd have a shot at my vote.
But yes, election reform is the real longterm solution. Its the only thing I can think of that would give voice back to the people.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 10:48:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
But yes, election reform is the real longterm solution. Its the only thing I can think of that would give voice back to the people.
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A 3 party system is only a little better than a two. We need multiple shifting parties any combo of which could have significant chunks of Congress at any give time and any one of which could snatch the Presidency. I believe that was probably what the Framers thought they were doing but there's fundamental flaws in the Constitution that, I believe, resulted in this undemocratic system we have now. |
-Chaloobi
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 14:51:06 [Permalink]
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Well, we used to have several viable political parties. This 2 party thing, where an independent or small party has zero chance at a win most times, is fairly recent. Probably stems from the polarizing effect of the cold war.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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The state of US politics
