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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 02/28/2008 : 12:02:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by andrew19
1st John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
That is a good question. I've got the answer for you in this well known verse. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. That WHO SO EVER SHOULD BELIEVE IN HIM shall not perish but have eternal life. Yet again like so many things with God, it is conditional.
My friends God loves you, but he did give us free will and you are responsible for "believing in him" if you want to be saved. Just like everyone else in the world that he died for. Including myself |
All you've done is described the contradiction between John 3:16 and 1 John 2:2, but you haven't provided any justification for believing one over the other.
I prefer 1 John 2:2 because it means that even though I don't believe, I've been saved.
Free Will doesn't enter into the discussion. At least the illusion Free Will is required so that John 3:16 doesn't look cruel (God punishing those whom He forced to not have faith is rather brutal), but Free Will is irrelevant to 1 John 2:2.
Of course, both verses rely upon the idea that the all-powerful Creator loves His creations so much that He chose to become like His creations and was killed by His creations so that if His creations believe in Him He won't punish them. Why should I want to live forever a being as insane as that?
Here's a question for you, andrew: does Satan have Free Will? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 12:07:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Here's a question for you, andrew: does Satan have Free Will?
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Oh, that's a good one. I'll have to remember to phrase the omniscient/free will question that way... |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 12:21:35 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: | Here's a question for you, andrew: does Satan have Free Will? |
I'm more interested in the question Does God have Free Will?
Point A: If God has free will and is all-good, that means that it is his nature to always choose good over evil, that proves that a being can exist which has free will and the nature to choose only good. And if this is true, God, being all-powerful, could have only created humans whose nature is just as good as his own and who also have free will.
If God does not have free will and is all-good, that makes free will something above or beyond God's power, which makes him not all-powerful. It also means he is not the supreme entity in existence since there would be natural laws that his power cannot exceed.
If "goodness" is something above or beyond God, again he is not the supreme entity in existence nor is he all-powerful.
Even if "goodness" is defined as merely whatever God decides, so long as He doesn't change his mind about it, if he also has free will, again that proves point A.
Edited to add: Traditional Christianity is such a frickin' slave religion.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 02/28/2008 12:24:30 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 12:28:10 [Permalink]
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Andrew wrote: | My friends God loves you, but he did give us free will and you are responsible for "believing in him" if you want to be saved. |
A rational person cannot make themselves believe in something that has no convincing evidence. I can't believe in your primitive theology any more than I can believe in Santa Claus. I can't believe in your primitive theology any more than YOU can believe in Santa Claus. If there is a creator, he gave us the ability to think critically. And if he didn't want us to use it, he shouldn't have made it. Your version of god either doesn't exist or he's a twisted sadist. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 02/28/2008 12:28:46 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 12:41:15 [Permalink]
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As Pleco stated, if your god is omnipotent then it can't create anything with free will.
Its self contradicting.
The very concept of omnipotence is nothing more than a logical fallacy, as is contains self evident mutually exclusive concepts.
If god knows everything, then when he created you he knew everything you would ever do. That renders your existance down to nothing more than the intent of an omnipotent being. If god didn't know everything you were going to ever do, then he isn't omnipotent.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 12:44:46 [Permalink]
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| Yes He can because He is God in 3...2...1... |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 12:59:34 [Permalink]
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The question about Satan having Free Will wasn't so much to strike at omniscience, especially since I've come around to think that a lack of Free Will wouldn't turn a person into "God's robot." God would be pretty damned weak if the only way He could give His creations any autonomy at all would be to give them the ability to doubt His existence. Biblical Free Will must refer only to the ability to choose to have faith, or to choose to disbelieve, in God. Otherwise, we're left with the impression that God micro-manages the behavior of every non-human creature on Earth (none of whom have Free Will), and so defending yourself against a wild dog is to go up against God's Will (because all wild dogs would necessarily be God's robot wild dogs). So, I'm of the opinion that "no Free Will means no ability to make choices" is poor theology.
Actually, I guess that doesn't do away with the omniscience question, either. An all-knowing God would, indeed, know long before you were born what choice you would make regarding faith in Him, so how is that choice actually "free?" Well, I don't know what God knows, and God ain't telling me, so the illusion of Free Will is maintained (and oddly cannot be distinguished from the absence of God). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 17:01:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by andrew19
Oh, and Dr Mabuse. We all, at some point, are in that same boat sir. I sincerely hope that you don't let yourself be resigned to that situation.
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Too late. God had his chance. But he fucked it up.
As yet, God hasn't been shown to be part of reality. So as far as He goes, He's irrelevant. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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andrew19
New Member
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 17:09:47 [Permalink]
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| Wow some interesting comments. Free will. If God didn't give us the ability to not love Him, would the love we have for Him truly be our choice??? That is the whole purpose behind God creating every single one of us. To love and worship Him that is. And as for Satan, yes he has free will. Satan chose to be prideful and exalt himself above his creator. God is just, how could he therefor make satan with the intent of sending him to hell(which is who it was created for in the first place)if he had no free will. Look into Ecclesiastes or Psalms. They are constantly describing Gods attributes. Oh Romans, there is a large section dealing with just that fact. I will get the chapter and verse(s) later I'm in a rush sorry. But even though God KNOWS what you will do, he doesn't MAKE you do it, it still is your choice. Its like your mom making cookies and telling you not to eat them, you cant blame your mom for making you eat the cookies. Any ways i look for to tha replies. Please look at those books for yourself, God Bless :)) |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 17:54:03 [Permalink]
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Andrew wrote: | Its like your mom making cookies and telling you not to eat them, you cant blame your mom for making you eat the cookies. Any ways i look for to tha replies. Please look at those books for yourself, God Bless :)) |
You can if your mom is an omnipotent and all-powerful being.
You also can if the kid is young enough. Consider this - if a mom puts pills in a candy dish with a five year old walking around. Now is it her fault if the kid eats them? Of course it is. And that is a much better analogy. As someone who has a naturally rational mindset, I am mentally incapable of accepting Christian theology. It strikes me as nonsense as I'm sure the idea of a literal Santa Claus or Easter bunny strike you as nonsense. Again, could you choose to believe in Santa Claus? Of course not. Your mind insists that the notion of Santa's literal existence is silly, and you see plenty of reasons why it is a myth. Now if my atheism turns out to be wrong, how am I any different from a 5 year old kid who honestly believes those little round things in the candy dish are candy? The kid can't help having a child's mentality, and I can't help being a rational thinker. If there is an intelligent creator, he made me this way. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 02/28/2008 17:54:17 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 18:42:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by andrew19
Wow some interesting comments. Free will.
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When you have time I'd be interested in your response to them.
Originally posted by andrew19
But even though God KNOWS what you will do, he doesn't MAKE you do it, it still is your choice.
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Then all I have is the illusion of free will. As DaveW more aptly phrased it.
An all-knowing God would, indeed, know long before you were born what choice you would make regarding faith in Him, so how is that choice actually "free?" Well, I don't know what God knows, and God ain't telling me, so the illusion of Free Will is maintained (and oddly cannot be distinguished from the absence of God).
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emphasis added. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 19:50:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by andrew19
And as for Satan, yes he has free will. Satan chose to be prideful and exalt himself above his creator. |
But Satan couldn't choose to not believe in God. Satan knew God (and Jesus) on a personal level. Defying God is not the same as lacking faith in, or love for, God.
Besides, Satan was an angel. God gave Free Will only to human beings.| God is just, how could he therefor make satan with the intent of sending him to hell(which is who it was created for in the first place)if he had no free will. |
Easily: God had no love for Satan. Satan was never a human. Satan is, in fact, God's chosen tool for bringing strife and sorrow into the world, and Satan was created just for that purpose, by God. Makes sense to me. Why should God worry about being "just" to a thing he built with no more Free Will than He gave to guppies?| Look into Ecclesiastes or Psalms. They are constantly describing Gods attributes. |
Actually, the moral of Ecclesiates is that we cannot - in our purile, mortal understanding - say whether anything is "good" or "bad," that judgement must be left up to God and there's not a damn thing we can do about it. So we cannot know what is truly right and truly wrong. That urge you have to kick a puppy might be a good thing in God's grand plan, because unknown to you, that puppy might otherwise grow up to be a vicious mongrel that kills a prophet. How can one reliably pick out the attributes of God from such a work, where the point is that you can't know what God wants of you, and all is "senseless, senseless?" Ecclesiastes is an odd duck of a book for a Christian to point to. The reason it appears to be in the Bible is that it follows along with the Messianic ideals. Other than that, the message is that life is pointless because there is only death afterwards (no afterlife, no eternal reward). And scholars still argue about the origin of Eccl 12:13 because it seems completely out of place in such a dismal work.
But, I enjoy the other notions in Ecclesiastes. There is a season for every purpose under Heaven. If it's truly "every" purpose, then it must include having no faith, so I may be serving God's purposes anyway (and Ecclesiastes is divinely inspired, so those are God's Words and I'm sticking to 'em  ). Won't know until I'm dead, but hey, 1 John 2:2 says Jesus' sacrifice was so great He even saved me, too. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
 Posted - 02/29/2008 : 06:47:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by andrew19
But even though God KNOWS what you will do, he doesn't MAKE you do it, it still is your choice. |
I think you missed the point. If God knows what you will do, you HAVE TO DO IT. You have no choice. Otherwise God doesn't know what you will do and therefore is not omniscient. It's pretty simple. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 17:37:24 [Permalink]
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And a little more on free will from the folks at Rapture Ready on Will we have free will in heaven?
We will have free will, but we will realize that to truly be free, our will must be in perfect alignment with the will of Almighty God.
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Just install God's Free Will Driver v1.0. Perfect from day one. Will never require a service pack. You are set for eternity. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 00:07:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by andrew19
If God didn't give us the ability to not love Him, would the love we have for Him truly be our choice??? That is the whole purpose behind God creating every single one of us. To love and worship Him that is. |
(1) What scripture, or other information, supports this claim [where boldface was added above] as to the purpose of our existence?
(2) Even if God exists, how could humans know His purpose? (See especially Titus 1:2 in which God is claimed not to lie, a claim that either a truthful God OR a manipulative, lying God could make.)
(3) If God exists & wanted us to love and worship Him, but gave us rational minds & free will, how can we be responsible for failing to choose "correctly"?
(4) Why doesn't a supreme entity who created lesser sentient entities in order that they could love & worship Him sound like one I would want to respect & associate with?
Now, I know that many, or at least some, Christians say that God wants us to love and worship Him for OUR sakes, not for His sake, so we can bask in His glow, etc, but see (3) above. Why wouldn't God be clearer about things (like His existence) for us skeptics, especially since He knows what it would take to convince us?
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I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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Hell, your final destination?
