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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
 Posted - 03/06/2008 : 06:29:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
Originally posted by andrew19
But even though God KNOWS what you will do, he doesn't MAKE you do it, it still is your choice. |
I think you missed the point. If God knows what you will do, you HAVE TO DO IT. You have no choice. Otherwise God doesn't know what you will do and therefore is not omniscient. It's pretty simple.
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Im struggling with the logic here, just because G has the ability to know what you will do in the end does not mean G pre-ordained it. If we were to step out of reality with a future seeing crystal ball, we could see the results of those free-will actions. This doesnt give the observer control over the actions he/she sees, only the abilty to know them. Now there are a lot of ifs in this arguement, but I can certainly see a version where we have free-will and G can see the outcome ahead of time. Now if G were to change something based on a pre-vision then THAT would remove free-will. Perhaps G doesnt want to know the outcome or has the ability to not know the outcome. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 06:30:55 [Permalink]
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| I guess what Im saying is that you assume that God can't choose ignorance, that he must know everything ahead of time, all the time. What a lame existance. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 03/06/2008 06:33:47 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 07:04:01 [Permalink]
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BPS said: | I guess what Im saying is that you assume that God can't choose ignorance, |
Not and still be omnipotent.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 07:25:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
BPS said: | I guess what Im saying is that you assume that God can't choose ignorance, |
Not and still be omnipotent.
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Yes, that is what I meant. In order to be omniscient, the Big G has to know what you will do, not what you may choose to do. This negates free will. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 07:27:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
I guess what Im saying is that you assume that God can't choose ignorance, that he must know everything ahead of time, all the time. What a lame existance.
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I agree, which is why that version of God seems extremely unlikely to me (well, that and a whole host of other reasons).
I don't recall any religion which says that their God is ignorant of anything... |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 07:30:03 [Permalink]
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| No you are not following me, Im saying while it is possible he might know every possible outcome, you have to assume that he wants to know or can't help knowing. Why cant he turn it off? |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 07:37:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
No you are not following me, Im saying while it is possible he might know every possible outcome, you have to assume that he wants to know or can't help knowing. Why cant he turn it off?
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I suppose he could, being all powerful and what-not, but does that mean he is not omniscient if he chooses to turn it off?
On top of that, if he can know the future, that means the future is pre-ordained, whether or not he chooses to know it. So no free will anyways. Right? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 07:44:48 [Permalink]
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BPS said:| No you are not following me, Im saying while it is possible he might know every possible outcome, you have to assume that he wants to know or can't help knowing. Why cant he turn it off? |
Well, he/she/it could. But when they do, they are no longer omnipotent.
Its like the whole "can god create an object so heavy he/she/it can't move it?"
Just another demonstration that the very concept of omnipotence is self contradicting. It contains mutually exclusive propositions.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 07:46:35 [Permalink]
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And then there is what pleco said as well.
If it is possible to know the future, even if some entity who had this power chose not to use it, free will is still shot to hell.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 08:58:44 [Permalink]
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Im sorry but that just doesnt compute with me, it only negates free will if the future was somehow chosen ahead of time. Knowledge of the future doesnt change the future if the knowledgable party is a non-participant.
Man I hate arguing over completely baseless ideas. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 10:26:32 [Permalink]
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If the sequence of numbers obtained from casting a die (as in, singular of dice) is known ahead of time to an observer who does not influence the outcome, is the die then rolling randomly as it plays out this "pre-observed" result? I'd say no.
I ran into something like this a few years ago while working on a research project. Someone else had used a random number generator to come up with a list of the sequence in which we would enroll each participant as either "intervention" or "control". I claimed that once the list was written down and known to me, it was no longer a random assignment, as the study protocol required. I knew when enrolling people exactly what their assignment was going to be, even though it didn't supposedly didn't influence me...or, not until I was trying to convince the last enrollee we needed. She was reluctant to enter the study because of the possibility of being assigned to the "intervention" arm. I subtly let her know not to worry, she'd be in the control arm. She agreed to participate in the study, & *surprise of surprises* was "randomly" assigned to the control group. So sue me. |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 10:31:02 [Permalink]
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| Let's assume that God can see all possible futures or choices you could make, if he doesnt interfere with any choice you could make, how does his knowledge prevent you from exercising your free-will to choose any one of the possibilities? |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 11:00:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Let's assume that God can see all possible futures or choices you could make, if he doesnt interfere with any choice you could make, how does his knowledge prevent you from exercising your free-will to choose any one of the possibilities?
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Because you aren't free to choose any possibility. It's already known before you make your choice what you will decide, so in a sense the decision has already been made. It may feel like you're making a choice, but if isn't possible for you to choose otherwise, then you don't really have free will, just the illusion of it. That's the opposite of free choice. That's fate.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 11:04:58 [Permalink]
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| I guess my brain just wraps differently around this issue. Im not sure I could explain it any differently. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 11:09:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
I guess my brain just wraps differently around this issue. Im not sure I could explain it any differently.
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I believe I understand where you're coming from BPS, I just don't think you're seeing the whole picture. You say god doesn't interfere in the decision-making process, therefore the choice is still yours. But god is interfering in the decision-making process. Knowledge is interference. If your choice was yours alone, the outcome would be known to no one but yourself. If someone else knows ahead of time what will happen and it's impossible for them to be wrong, then the future is set. It's predetermined. Predetermination negates free will. Knowledge in this case is not passive observance. It literally sets the unchanging path for the future.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/06/2008 11:11:14 |
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Hell, your final destination?
