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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 11:57:49 [Permalink]
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You are completely ignoring the fact that knowledge of all possible futures negates your whole point. That isnt an unchanging path it is all possible paths with no preference to any particular course, allowing you and I to choose any one of the possibilties that we can affect. You cant free-will an impossibility that this Spagetti Monster will not see.
All possible futures and the singular future that will actually come to pass are very different. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 12:01:51 [Permalink]
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If the sequence of numbers obtained from casting a die (as in, singular of dice) is known ahead of time to an observer who does not influence the outcome, is the die then rolling randomly as it plays out this "pre-observed" result? I'd say no.
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My idea is that he can see the billions of ways that you could throw the dice and the result of each, so no matter how/what you throw, that future would be foreknowledge and the other billion are "didnt come to pass" futures. The number on the dice wasnt pre-ordained but every possible way of tossing it was. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 12:11:36 [Permalink]
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If G knows what you will do, then you will do it. QED.
I think that negates any "all possible futures" - there can be no other possible future except for the one that is known by G will happen - if we assume G is omniscient. Knowing everything implies knowing the definite future. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 03/06/2008 : 12:11:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
My idea is that he can see the billions of ways that you could throw the dice and the result of each, so no matter how/what you throw, that future would be foreknowledge and the other billion are "didnt come to pass" futures. |
Is that idea supported Biblically? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 12:17:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
The number on the dice wasnt pre-ordained but every possible way of tossing it was.
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Yeah, but that's not omnipotence. If I throw a dice, I have prior knowledge of "all possible futures," i.e. it's going to be any number 1-6. That's not the same thing as knowing which number is actually going to come up.
So, yeah, I agree that a god who possesses "knowledge of all possible futures" wouldn't violate free will, but I would also conclude that that such a god is not omnipotent.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/06/2008 12:17:45 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 12:46:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
My idea is that he can see the billions of ways that you could throw the dice and the result of each, so no matter how/what you throw, that future would be foreknowledge and the other billion are "didnt come to pass" futures. |
Is that idea supported Biblically?
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No, but Im re-writing it as we speak, the other 30 versions didnt really work for me. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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timothwc
New Member
16 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 20:29:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
My idea is that he can see the billions of ways that you could throw the dice and the result of each, so no matter how/what you throw, that future would be foreknowledge and the other billion are "didnt come to pass" futures. |
Is that idea supported Biblically?
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No, but Im re-writing it as we speak, the other 30 versions didnt really work for me.
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If God knew everything ahead of time, then he doesn't have the power to change, since that would mean he didn't really know EVERYTHING ahead of time. But if he doesn't change anything (because he can't), then he's not really omnipotent.
Looks like God is facing a tough choice between being able to know everything or do everything.
The heart of the debate is about what free will means. For BPS, it simply means doing what one's heart desires. For H. Humbert, it also has to include doing actions that would render everybody NOT omniscient.
What matter, the holier-than-thou types will continue to shout God is great, and declare we'll all going to hell anyways.
(However, knowing all possible outcomes is NOT my definition of omniscience) |
| Edited by - timothwc on 03/06/2008 20:57:34 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 20:54:50 [Permalink]
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If God doesn't know everything then he can't do everything, by the simple fact that he can't predict the future. Of course, if God knows the pre-determined future, then he can't change it, and thus he also can't do everything.
Looks like regardless of whether he can make a boulder so large he can't lift it, God's omnipotence is screwed whether he knows everything or not. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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timothwc
New Member
16 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 20:59:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
If God doesn't know everything then he can't do everything, by the simple fact that he can't predict the future. Of course, if God knows the pre-determined future, then he can't change it, and thus he also can't do everything.
Looks like regardless of whether he can make a boulder so large he can't lift it, God's omnipotence is screwed whether he knows everything or not.
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Definitions, definitions, definitions.
Arguing over those will last us all night.
Besides the dispute over what free will means, another bone of contention seems to be over omniscience. I subscribe to the notion that omniscience means knowing what will happen at a certain time, NOT simply knowing every possible outcome. |
| Edited by - timothwc on 03/06/2008 21:08:04 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 21:40:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by timothwc
I subscribe to the notion that omniscience means knowing what will happen at a certain time, NOT simply knowing every possible outcome.
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Right. Just knowing possible outcomes isn't enough to count as omniscient in my book. I don't think most people's conception of an omniscient god is a guy you could beat at dice.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 21:55:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by timothwc
I subscribe to the notion that omniscience means knowing what will happen at a certain time, NOT simply knowing every possible outcome. |
Sure, sure. Part of my point was that if God knew, years ahead of time, that he would appear to Moses as a burning bush on thus-and-such a date, then either God was impotent to change that event, or else God's ability to change the future means he didn't actually know it. Either way, God cannot be omnipotent because his powers obviously must have limitations.
Now, a counter-argument might be that God both knows the future and can change it, but simply chooses not to. But a steadfast refusal to use a power is, for all practical purposes, a lack of that power. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 22:43:24 [Permalink]
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We are, obviously, imposing a linear perception of time on the deity.
But the basic point still stands: Omnipotence is a long series of mutuallly exclusive propositions. Its a ridiculous concept.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2008 : 05:58:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by timothwc
I subscribe to the notion that omniscience means knowing what will happen at a certain time, NOT simply knowing every possible outcome. |
Sure, sure. Part of my point was that if God knew, years ahead of time, that he would appear to Moses as a burning bush on thus-and-such a date, then either God was impotent to change that event, or else God's ability to change the future means he didn't actually know it. Either way, God cannot be omnipotent because his powers obviously must have limitations.
Now, a counter-argument might be that God both knows the future and can change it, but simply chooses not to. But a steadfast refusal to use a power is, for all practical purposes, a lack of that power.
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The Abrahamic God (used to) performs miracles, directly interfering with normal events and time flow, thus throwing another wrench in the whole free will thingy.
But this is moot, since by definition God cannot be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time.
The True Believer will say that God can do both the logical and the illogical because He is omnipotent, but what's the point with arguing with the delusional and irrational anyway? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2008 : 06:20:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
We are, obviously, imposing a linear perception of time on the deity.
But the basic point still stands: Omnipotence is a long series of mutuallly exclusive propositions. Its a ridiculous concept.
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Ah, AMEN to that. {Get's Dude a beer} |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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BlueCollarScientist
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2008 : 03:59:20 [Permalink]
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Back on page two (or maybe three):
Originally posted by filthy
...on a remote planet in the "unfashionable" part of a minor galaxy....
On the gripping hand....
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Adams?
Then Niven, definitely.
(If there were more literary allusions, I didn't place them.)
Ok. Back to the pig-wrestling. More participation from filthy is hereby encouraged.
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http://bluecollarscientist.com/ |
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Hell, your final destination?
