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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/08/2009 : 12:59:00 [Permalink]
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Sucks indeed and there are a lot of folks in my neck of the woods who are out of work and praying for it to get unsuck before they have to register for food stamps. I don't see it happening any time soon, with or without divine intervention. Hoping that y'all continue to stay on top of it, Doo & Kil & everybody.
"If you want to dig a hole, use a shovel. If you want to fill in that hole, you must also use a shovel. If some god or other really gave a rat's ass, there'd be no such bloody thing as a freakin' shovel. ~~ anon
Good to see you back!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 02/08/2009 : 19:52:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doomar
If you wish to engage in a reasonable discussion, you must believe there is such a thing as reason and logic. The laws of logic exist only in the realm of the mind. They are laws of thinking or how to think and reason correctly. They cannot be proven in a physics or chemistry lab. The evolutionist or materialist by definition rejects the laws of logic, yet attempts to use them in discussion. How is that possible? |
Bwahahahahahahaha!
Poor Doomar thinks that the "laws of logic" are immaterial, and with that unsupported premise, expects us to think that his conclusion is sound and valid. It is an ultra-epic fail to lecture on logic while using poor logic.| But what is possible and what is not possible is irrelevant to the materialist, only that things are as he or she sees them. Right or wrong, true or false has no real bearing on the materialist. |
That's just projection.| Such things can't really exist without the exceptance of logical thought which proves that such things exist. |
Actually, "logical thought" does no such thing. And your typo, "exceptance," is pretty damn funny, considering the context.| ...a caring Creator wants to redeem you from your fallen, darkened state. |
A caring Creator could redeem us whether we believe in It or not. The Creator that you're talking about demands love and punishes forever those who don't giove it. What reasons do we have to think that the Creator of evil will make good on His alleged deal, anyway? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2009 : 21:35:08 [Permalink]
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"You'll get what's coming to you! I'll show you! You'll wish you'd listened to me!" *yawn*
Future utopia for self & friends.
Future severe dystopia for all the rest.
These are common fantasies among human groups.
The grass is always greener on The Other Side, even when the other side exists only in the imagination.
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I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/09/2009 : 03:57:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Zebra
"You'll get what's coming to you! I'll show you! You'll wish you'd listened to me!" *yawn*
Future utopia for self & friends.
Future severe dystopia for all the rest.
These are common fantasies among human groups.
The grass is always greener on The Other Side, even when the other side exists only in the imagination.
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Especally if the Other Side exists only in the imagination!
Unicorns and Butterflies everywhere.....
Or: angles and Demons everywhere....
.
Or: Seventy two Virgins everywhere.....
Or: There is no more "Or," 'nuff said. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2009 : 13:45:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
What reasons do we have to think that the Creator of evil will make good on His alleged deal, anyway?
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He has already made good for me. LOL! I don't have to wait to find out.
Creating hell is not the same as doing evil. God cannot sin or do evil. Is it evil to make prisons for criminals to separate them from those who are trying to live under the law? Hell is a prison for those who rebel against their maker. Are you admitting that there is a God, Dave, in noting he is "creator of evil?" Or is this just some mind game with you as I suspect? |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 02/09/2009 13:48:59 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2009 : 15:08:05 [Permalink]
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"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
This quote on Filthy's reply is a recognition that men are inherently corrupt or "sinful." It's not that hard to see. The Bible explains why this is so, how we got here, and how we can escape the condemnation because of it.
If you're in a pit because you fell into it or were pushed and cannot get out, do you curse the person who shines a light into the hole and lets down a rope for you? Maybe you do if you think he's the one who pushed you in the hole.
The whole human race is in the hole. God sent his Son to shine the light and let down the rope. He's the only one with the light and the rope. People are in the hole not because they were pushed, but because their natures have been corrupted with sin. The sin is a rejection of their Creator and His ways so they can do their own thing or whatever sinful thing comes into their mind. People don't want to acknowledge God and give Him credit for anything except their own wicked behavior. Their daily food and water and air and shelter and protection are all taken for granted thanklessly. Their crimes against their neighbors, their hatred, murder, rape, adultery, incest, lying, stealing, and brutality are all blamed on God and they take no responsibility for all the evil they willingly do.
Now reasonable men in society who fear God have set up a justice system to deal with many criminals and this is a widely accepted practice to separate convicted criminals from others, but somehow, it is unreasonable for similar men to acknowledge an eternal justice system whereby there is a just God who keeps tabs on all, yet in His love, made a way for fallen humans, so they could escape judgment by simply believing in His Son and His atonement for our sins. That faith is counted as righteousness by God and affords a pardon to all who trust in His Son. In spite of this knowledge, many men still reject the plan because they want to continue to do their own thing without regard to God or His ways. When such people die, they wind up in hell, the prison of God, while those who take the rope and are pulled out of the pit have a great place prepared for them in heaven where they can live with God forever and while still on this earth, they tell others of this wonderful plan whereby they found forgiveness and mercy and continue in this life showing that mercy and grace to others and trying to follow the rules of God's eternal kingdom.
This message is foolish to most, but those who believe it (the gospel or good news) find mercy and the power of God to save them from their sin, granting them a new nature, a new birth (born again) and the liberty to do good; not perfection but acceptance by God through their faith and not their imperfect works.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 02/09/2009 19:37:33 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2009 : 15:19:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doomar
Originally posted by Dave W.
What reasons do we have to think that the Creator of evil will make good on His alleged deal, anyway?
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He has already made good for me. LOL! I don't have to wait to find out.
Creating hell is not the same as doing evil. God cannot sin or do evil. Is it evil to make prisons for criminals to separate them from those who are trying to live under the law? Hell is a prison for those who rebel against their maker. Are you admitting that there is a God, Dave, in noting he is "creator of evil?" Or is this just some mind game with you as I suspect? |
[My emphais.]
Oh, then you are already a saint in heaven?
You seem to be in a codependent, enabling relationship with your abusive, genocidal myth-man. Look at what he supposedly did (on a bet with Satan, no less) to Job, who loved and obeyed him without limit.
We here have very limited ability to do an intervention for you. You'll need to hit rock bottom before you can see for yourself the reasons that you need to get this spook out of your life. Meanwhile, your denial regarding your problem is not evidence.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/09/2009 15:19:54 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2009 : 16:18:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doomar
If you're in a pit because you fell into it or were pushed and cannot get out, do you curse the person who shines a light into the hole and lets down a rope for you? Maybe you do if you think he's the one who pushed you in the hole. |
But God (if he was to exist as per your worldview) is not only shinning a light into the hole.
He also put the forbidden tree in the garden, by allowed Satan to get corrupt and in turn corrupt mankind, and passed the sins of the parents onto the as yet unborn further generations, despite the Bible saying that children should not be punished for the crimes of their parents.
Hence, he not only shine the light. He dig the hole, coat its surrounding with soap, brought a known bully near the hole and then brought up, blindfolded, in front of the hole.
You will excuse me if I am not overcome with gratitude if he then offer me a way out of the hole... at his conditions, of course. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2009 : 17:08:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doomar
As they await that final judgment, they reside in a place called hell. Yes, their body will dry up like dust, ...
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How do you know this is actually what will happen?
Originally posted by Doomar
It would behoove each of you to reconsider your place and sincerely seek for light while there is still time to find it. I didn't make this up or come up with it on my own.
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I accept that you did not make this up, but how do you know that some other, probably annonymous person didn't?
Originally posted by Doomar
But though the skeptic lived relatively free from fear in this life, the terror in the next will be unbearable, uncontrollable, and unrelenting.
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Fear of punishment in the afterlife. It seems prudent to this skeptic, and others before me, that I should pick the religion with the worst punishment in its afterlife. That is with all things concerning religions being equal, which they are.
Originally posted by Doomar
Kind and just people who strove for righteousness on this earth and helped bring relative order will be forever separated from the skeptic in hell.
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emphasis added
You're kidding. Right? |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2009 : 19:11:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
But God (if he was to exist as per your worldview) is not only shinning a light into the hole.
He also put the forbidden tree in the garden, by allowed Satan to get corrupt and in turn corrupt mankind, and passed the sins of the parents onto the as yet unborn further generations, despite the Bible saying that children should not be punished for the crimes of their parents.
Hence, he not only shine the light. He dig the hole, coat its surrounding with soap, brought a known bully near the hole and then brought up, blindfolded, in front of the hole.
You will excuse me if I am not overcome with gratitude if he then offer me a way out of the hole... at his conditions, of course.
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Your viewpoint, Simon, does not allow for willing choices made by independent beings. You think a loving God controls all things like puppets on strings. Surely you can see that is not true even in your own life.
You had a father who most likely loved you and took care of you, but do you blame him for your own disobedience to his rules? He set the rules and made it possible for you to break them, therefore he is to blame...huh? He explained to you right and wrong (hopefully), such as why it was bad to lie, to steal, and so on. Do you blame him if you lie and steal in spite of his training?
God gave Adam and Eve a simple command to not touch or eat of one of thousands of trees in the garden of Eden. Sure the tempter came to tempt Eve, but she did not need to give in. She had seen God and knew of His love and care for her, yet she doubted God because of some unknown talking snake who appealed to her desire to be like God. Yet, still, you are willing to blame the Creator instead of the creature who chose poorly, again, thinking He is running everyone and everything like a puppet master. It is your world view that is out of sync with reality. You are not without responsibility in this matter. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 02/09/2009 19:38:44 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2009 : 19:36:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Doomar
As they await that final judgment, they reside in a place called hell. Yes, their body will dry up like dust, ...
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How do you know this is actually what will happen?
I know because I believe what the Bible teaches about it. Are you wanting the actual references?
Originally posted by Doomar
It would behoove each of you to reconsider your place and sincerely seek for light while there is still time to find it. I didn't make this up or come up with it on my own.
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I accept that you did not make this up, but how do you know that some other, probably annonymous person didn't?
Again, I believe the Bible, and having studied it, I know the authors were all men who feared and loved God. I have no trouble believing that an Almighty God is able to have his Holy Scriptures passed down and accurately translated into multiple languages for us to read them in our own language.
Originally posted by Doomar
But though the skeptic lived relatively free from fear in this life, the terror in the next will be unbearable, uncontrollable, and unrelenting.
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Fear of punishment in the afterlife. It seems prudent to this skeptic, and others before me, that I should pick the religion with the worst punishment in its afterlife. That is with all things concerning religions being equal, which they are.
Can't say I understand your meaning. Can you clarify?
Originally posted by Doomar
Kind and just people who strove for righteousness on this earth and helped bring relative order will be forever separated from the skeptic in hell.
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emphasis added
You're kidding. Right?
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Nope, not kidding. I hope you realize that this world could be and was at one time, a place of great chaos. Note the founders of this country were not skeptics regarding God. Most were members of Christian churches, some were Deists, who also believed in a divine Creator. All government powers are granted and ordained by God. John 19:11 And such powers do bring a relative peace and safety to a people while putting fear in the hearts of wrongdoers. The more corrupt governments become, i.e., the more they turn away from Biblical values in law and judgment, or the less of such values that they incorporate within their laws, the more chaos and disorder. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 02/09/2009 19:45:56 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2009 : 20:06:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Oh, then you are already a saint in heaven?
You seem to be in a codependent, enabling relationship with your abusive, genocidal myth-man. Look at what he supposedly did (on a bet with Satan, no less) to Job, who loved and obeyed him without limit.
We here have very limited ability to do an intervention for you. You'll need to hit rock bottom before you can see for yourself the reasons that you need to get this spook out of your life. Meanwhile, your denial regarding your problem is not evidence. |
John 17:3 (KJV) 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Eternal life starts when a soul is born again of the Spirit of God, not when they die and go to heaven. A Christian receives the "earnest" of the Spirit as proof of what is to come. I don't expect you to understand it, but that is what happened to me and what happens to everyone who is born again...they are able to "see and enter into the kingdom of heaven." John 3 The promises of Jesus are real and are fulfilled in the people who receive His words, repent of their sins, and bow to Him. It is not I that needs intervention, friend. Jesus intervened long ago to save me from a sure fate of death for which I am forever grateful. There is no freedom in a sinful, selfish life; only bondage. The wages of my former master and your current master are bondage, despair, and death. There's no way I ever want to go back to that. I've been at rock bottom already. Best to pull out the beam from your own eye... |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2009 : 20:54:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doomar
Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Doomar
As they await that final judgment, they reside in a place called hell. Yes, their body will dry up like dust, ...
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How do you know this is actually what will happen?
I know because I believe what the Bible teaches about it. Are you wanting the actual references?
Originally posted by Doomar
It would behoove each of you to reconsider your place and sincerely seek for light while there is still time to find it. I didn't make this up or come up with it on my own.
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I accept that you did not make this up, but how do you know that some other, probably annonymous person didn't?
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Again, I believe the Bible, and having studied it, I know the authors were all men who feared and loved God. I have no trouble believing that an Almighty God is able to have his Holy Scriptures passed down and accurately translated into multiple languages for us to read them in our own language.
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How do you know that the Bible is what you believe it to be?
Originally posted by Doomar
Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Doomar
But though the skeptic lived relatively free from fear in this life, the terror in the next will be unbearable, uncontrollable, and unrelenting.
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Fear of punishment in the afterlife. It seems prudent to this skeptic, and others before me, that I should pick the religion with the worst punishment in its afterlife. That is with all things concerning religions being equal, which they are.
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Can't say I understand your meaning. Can you clarify?
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I consider all religions to be essentially equal when it comes to the open and honest evaluation of their merits. Your argument was "believe or face eternal terror/damnation". My point was that if fear of eternal damnation is considered such an effective religious motivator, then shouldn't I pick the religion with the worst terror/damnation.
Originally posted by Doomar
Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Doomar
Kind and just people who strove for righteousness on this earth and helped bring relative order will be forever separated from the skeptic in hell.
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emphasis added
You're kidding. Right?
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Nope, not kidding. I hope you realize that this world could be and was at one time, a place of great chaos. Note the founders of this country were not skeptics regarding God. Most were members of Christian churches, some were Deists, who also believed in a divine Creator. All government powers are granted and ordained by God. John 19:11 And such powers do bring a relative peace and safety to a people while putting fear in the hearts of wrongdoers. The more corrupt governments become, i.e., the more they turn away from Biblical values in law and judgment, or the less of such values that they incorporate within their laws, the more chaos and disorder.
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The Constitution is a secular document it makes no mention of God or Gods. Regardless of what the nation's early leaders believed or didn't believe about any particular God or Gods in no way changes the fact that the Constitution is the foundation upon which all government powers in this country extend. What you are dreaming of is a theocracy and you really do not have to look too far to find theocratic forms of government. Judge for yourself how effective they are at preventing chaos and disorder while preserving the rights of the individual. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2009 : 20:56:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doomar
Nope, not kidding. I hope you realize that this world could be and was at one time, a place of great chaos. Note the founders of this country were not skeptics regarding God. Most were members of Christian churches, some were Deists, who also believed in a divine Creator. All government powers are granted and ordained by God. John 19:11 And such powers do bring a relative peace and safety to a people while putting fear in the hearts of wrongdoers. The more corrupt governments become, i.e., the more they turn away from Biblical values in law and judgment, or the less of such values that they incorporate within their laws, the more chaos and disorder.
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Yep, there's not nearly enough killing of disobedient children. THAT'S the problem these days. The gov'ment has been turning away from Bilebul values in law and judgement, that's for sure.
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"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2009 : 21:19:53 [Permalink]
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Your viewpoint, Simon, does not allow for willing choices made by independent beings. You think a loving God controls all things like puppets on strings. Surely you can see that is not true even in your own life. |
Actually, no.
I have no way, and neither do you, to know that I indeed have free will and not merely an illusion of free will.
Other on this board have debated at great length on why free will and omnipotence are mutually exclusive.
You had a father who most likely loved you and took care of you, but do you blame him for your own disobedience to his rules? He set the rules and made it possible for you to break them, therefore he is to blame...huh? He explained to you right and wrong (hopefully), such as why it was bad to lie, to steal, and so on. Do you blame him if you lie and steal in spite of his training?
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And once again, no.
But, even then, my father was never omnipotent or omniscient nor did he have any power to stop the temptation from happening.
Also, this line of reasoning clearly points as suffering being the fault of Man's evilness.
Not only is it difficult to explain when natural causes are the cause, but it often lead to a 'blaming the victims' situation.
God gave Ada0m and Eve a simple command to not touch or eat of one of thousands of trees in the garden of Eden. Sure the tempter came to tempt Eve, but she did not need to give in. She had seen God and knew of His love and care for her, yet she doubted God because of some unknown talking snake who appealed to her desire to be like God. Yet, still, you are willing to blame the Creator instead of the creature who chose poorly, again, thinking He is running everyone and everything like a puppet master. It is your world view that is out of sync with reality. You are not without responsibility in this matter.
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But he still put the tree there. Knowing that Eve would bite of it.
He had no need to put it there, neither were they need for the interdiction
Not only, there do not seem to be any need and the forbidding seems purely arbitrary.
But, in any case, God is all-powerful, meaning he has no needs, whatsoever and can do as he please.
The tree was put there knowing it was going to lead to the fall of Man.
In fact, everything indicates that the tree was put there with the express purpose of causing the fall of Man.
It was a trap.
And, no, Adam and Eve could not have avoided falling into the trap, as it was put there by the Master of all trap-makers for the express purpose of screwing them over.
Not only that, but Eve, according to the story, had no notion of Good and Bad before disobeying. Therefore, her disobedience could not be an act of evil and, hence, a punishment was not warranted... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
| Edited by - Simon on 02/09/2009 21:37:10 |
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Hell, your final destination?
