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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 02/09/2009 : 22:39:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doomar
John 17:3 (KJV) 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
The wages of my former master and your current master are bondage, despair, and death. There's no way I ever want to go back to that. I've been at rock bottom already. Best to pull out the beam from your own eye... |
I'm glad you're not "rock bottom" anymore, Doomar, I truly am. I can only imagine how bad that was when you were there, if you now feel that your dependence upon a cruel, malicious (but thankfully mythical) god is such an improvement. I realize that some people truly believe that blind, clueless faith alone makes them wiser and happier. I would strongly dispute the "wiser" part, but I openly admit that some people may be happiest in their delusions.
As for my "current master": I've already been accused of being a Devil worshiper by experts in that particular calumny, thanks. I have no more belief in that Satan spook than I do in your god.
No gods, no masters, thank you very much. Since I'm retired, I've not even a boss, just my experiences and ethical sense of brotherhood to guide me.
Just a suggestion, but here it is: Quoting from scripture won't get you far in an argument here. Variations upon "the Bible says the Bible is true" don't cut it among critical thinkers. I'd say your first task would be to demonstrate the existence of your particular Bronze Age god. A very tall order, that.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 02:08:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doomar
God gave Adam and Eve a simple command to not touch or eat of one of thousands of trees in the garden of Eden. Sure the tempter came to tempt Eve, but she did not need to give in. She had seen God and knew of His love and care for her, yet she doubted God because of some unknown talking snake who appealed to her desire to be like God. Yet, still, you are willing to blame the Creator instead of the creature who chose poorly, again, thinking He is running everyone and everything like a puppet master. It is your world view that is out of sync with reality. You are not without responsibility in this matter. |
Nope. We're without responsibility in this matter. If God put the whole situation together, God is responsible for the outcome, & none of this sacrificing himself to himself to absolve himself of the sins he gets in such a snit about when the creation he made does what he made it possible for them to do.
Couple of issues w/ the Eden story, if I may.
Genesis 2:8 (NKJV) The LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. 9 And out of the ground the LORD God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. ...
2:15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
18 And the LORD God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” |
Please note that:
(1) Eve had not yet been made when God warned Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, lest he die. We have no evidence that God warned her, too, & in fact he may have been setting her up. (Oops)
(2) Adam was not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which suggests that he did not have knowledge of good and evil when he received this warning. Perhaps he could not know that it was good to follow God's commands, and evil not to? (Oops)
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?”
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.'”
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” |
God made the serpent, but *oops* made it cunning. Eve had apparently heard the rules from Adam, but the rule had expanded from "shall not eat" to "shall not eat or touch"; this is the first example on record of miscommunication between spouses, but not the last.
Then what happens? The serpent tells the truth and tells Eve that God was lying to Adam & Eve. (Darn it, I hate it when my deity does that and a snake has to clue me in.) Eve then Adam eat, and their eyes are opened (at least to nakedness and how to sew fig leaves). God finds out (by asking Adam). Then what? Do Adam and Eve die, as God said would "surely" happen "on the day" they ate the fruit of that tree?
Why....no. God curses the serpent, |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
| Edited by - Zebra on 02/10/2009 02:15:00 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 05:35:37 [Permalink]
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| Nice. I enjoyed reading your post, Zebra. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 06:48:48 [Permalink]
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Zebra, also note that apparently if Adam had eating for the Tree of Life and become immortal, God could have done nothing about it. Further, why didn't God just have a do-over, and revert Adam and Eve back to a previous version before all this, and he could have changed up things instead of setting them up for failure?
Anyway, good post - especially pointing out the holes in the story. Really makes you wonder what kind of brain it takes to believe that story - as written - actually happened. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 07:09:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
Zebra, also note that apparently if Adam had eating for the Tree of Life and become immortal, God could have done nothing about it. Further, why didn't God just have a do-over, and revert Adam and Eve back to a previous version before all this, and he could have changed up things instead of setting them up for failure?
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So the real problem is that God didn't have a rollback plan?? Sheesh. I guess nobody looked over his Change Management form closely enough. |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/10/2009 : 07:11:37 [Permalink]
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As I recall, God did indeed take a mulligan on it. The do-over wasn't all that great, either; just longer, bloodier and crazier than ever.
It's enough to make one question the Almighty Competence, it is. I think the old fart should give the job over to someone younger, and retire.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 08:11:47 [Permalink]
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This is why I prefer Greek myth. Zeus turning into a swan to seduce Leda is much more logical and believable.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 09:35:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
As I recall, God did indeed take a mulligan on it. The do-over wasn't all that great, either; just longer, bloodier and crazier than ever.
It's enough to make one question the Almighty Competence, it is. I think the old fart should give the job over to someone younger, and retire.
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Didn't he do that to? Turned it over to his son? No more wrath, but the world still is going to hell. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 09:36:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
This is why I prefer Greek myth. Zeus turning into a swan to seduce Leda is much more logical and believable.
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Zeus is the Rock Hudson of gods. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 13:08:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
Originally posted by filthy
As I recall, God did indeed take a mulligan on it. The do-over wasn't all that great, either; just longer, bloodier and crazier than ever.
It's enough to make one question the Almighty Competence, it is. I think the old fart should give the job over to someone younger, and retire.
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Didn't he do that to? Turned it over to his son? No more wrath, but the world still is going to hell.
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Yeah, he just did a little nepotism and handed it off to his neer-do-well kid who has yet to do squat about anything, various Christian fantasy-wallopers to the contrary. Thus far, the most that can be said is that he looks ok, if not great, burned into a stale cheese sandwich. We'd have been better off (and he'd be more honest) if he'd just posted the gig on the bulletin board and held interviews with the applicants.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 02/10/2009 13:12:16 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 13:35:10 [Permalink]
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Poor Doomar, still filled with delusion I see.
What makes you think that quoting scripture will have any effect here? Is that what converted you to a mindless believer?
Wasn't there once a time when you were actually capable of participating in debate here? I'm sure I recall having actual discussions with you before your meltdown.
And honestly, did you forget how to use things like complete sentences and paragraph breaks? You are providing more evidence for my "religion makes you use poor grammar" hypothesis!
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 21:59:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
if you now feel that your dependence upon a cruel, malicious (but thankfully mythical) god is such an improvement. I realize that some people truly believe that blind, clueless faith alone makes them wiser and happier.
My God is not cruel or malicious, HM. He is kind and full of compassion and mercy and grace toward all, even sinful men. "God is love." Now there are false gods which are extremely cruel and malicious, but they are not gods at all. They are demons posing as a god.
As for my "current master": I've already been accused of being a Devil worshiper by experts in that particular calumny, thanks. I have no more belief in that Satan spook than I do in your god.
It is not necessary to believe in Satan to serve him. In fact, most people serve him well and have no clue who they are truly serving.
No gods, no masters, thank you very much. Since I'm retired, I've not even a boss, just my experiences and ethical sense of brotherhood to guide me.
If a person sins, he is a slave to sin and in bondage to those evil desires.
Just a suggestion, but here it is: Quoting from scripture won't get you far in an argument here. Variations upon "the Bible says the Bible is true" don't cut it among critical thinkers. I'd say your first task would be to demonstrate the existence of your particular Bronze Age god. A very tall order, that.
I am not here to prove God's existence or the veracity of the Bible. I am a witness to the truth, having experienced it. I believe both in God and the truth of the Scriptures. I have proved both to be true through obedience to the faith. Jesus taught that if we obey his teaching we will know and understand the truth.
"God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble." The proud, self-assured man cannot know God, because God will not reveal himself to such a person nor give him grace to believe and "Without faith it is impossible to please God." God, however, is in the business of abasing the proud man. It's part of His "job description." So that's good news for you and all of us! Not because he enjoys such things, but He wants to save every soul. Very much like a father who chastens a wayward child so they won't grow up to be a criminal. Men resist His Holy Spirit, however, to their own detriment. To win against God is to lose your soul and to wind up in hell. To lose is to gain your soul and every good thing God has for you.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 22:16:29 [Permalink]
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Zebra, if you don't believe in God or in the Scriptures, why do you waste your time pointing out supposed flaws? If you were a believer, I could see how they might trouble you.
Your misinterpretation of the story and the facts is due to your misunderstanding the nature of God and not truly grasping the gist of the story. As you read on you see how Adam and Eve met with God every day and talked with Him. Eve did not need to rely only on the word of Adam. All the words that God spoke to them are not recorded. Only what we need to know.
If you want to understand it requires repentance and faith which are only given to the humble or humbled. What makes you suppose that a sinner fighting against God, such as yourself, could possible understand or know what God is talking about in the Bible? "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble." |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 23:03:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doomar
My God is not cruel or malicious, HM. He is kind and full of compassion and mercy and grace toward all, even sinful men. "God is love." ... |
As a start, please just explain your putative god's treatment of Job fits within that context. (I brought up Job earlier, but you ignored it that time. I think I know why: There's simply no way a compassionate god of love could treat his purest worshiper in that manner.)| It is not necessary to believe in Satan to serve him. In fact, most people serve him well and have no clue who they are truly serving. |
It is necessary to believe in a god in order to worship that god. For the last fifty years, I've seen no evidence that any exists, and plenty of evidence that people are forever inventing such constructs.| If a person sins, he is a slave to sin and in bondage to those evil desires. |
"Sin" and "evil" as you choose to use the terms, are purely religious terms ie, either meaningless or meaning the very opposite of what the appear to. Like "unlean" used by the Hebrews as a religious term encompassing handicapped people who were not allowed to "pollute" the Temple with their presence.
Excuse me, but you apparently see god-commanded genocide, murder, infanticide and butchery of pregnant wives of the enemy as the acts of a god of "compassion and mercy and grace toward all, even sinful men." So I am quite suspect of whatever may be encompassed by your concept of "sin" and "evil."
Don't those Orwellian terms really boil down to failing to kiss Yahweh's (and not coincidentally) his priests' asses, rather than referring to man's inhumanity to man? (See "god-commanded genocide, murder, infanticide and butchery," above.)| I am not here to prove God's existence or the veracity of the Bible. I am a witness to the truth, having experienced it. I believe both in God and the truth of the Scriptures. I have proved both to be true through obedience to the faith. Jesus taught that if we obey his teaching we will know and understand the truth... [And on, and on, and on...] |
Then you are wasting your time and ours with your scripture-quoting platitudes. This is a forum for evidence-based discussion of issues, not just a place to share the result of the misfiring of neurons in one's cranium. If you wanted an evidence-based discussion of your god, we could do that, but you've flatly refused.
It is as though you came to a baseball game and spent the entire nine innings complaining about how the game is not being played according to the proper rules of football.
Since it appears that what you've "witnessed" is simple subjective delusion, I propose that your personal certainty is based upon nothing real. You've pretty much already admitted you have nothing but your delusions themselves to counter this proposal.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/11/2009 13:17:52 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 23:13:59 [Permalink]
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Because of the interest in the Genesis account let's go over it from the perspective of one who knows and understands the Lord.
Originally posted by Zebra
Originally posted by Doomar
God gave Adam and Eve a simple command to not touch or eat of one of thousands of trees in the garden of Eden. Sure the tempter came to tempt Eve, but she did not need to give in. She had seen God and knew of His love and care for her, yet she doubted God because of some unknown talking snake who appealed to her desire to be like God. Yet, still, you are willing to blame the Creator instead of the creature who chose poorly, again, thinking He is running everyone and everything like a puppet master. It is your world view that is out of sync with reality. You are not without responsibility in this matter. |
Nope. We're without responsibility in this matter. If God put the whole situation together, God is responsible for the outcome, & none of this sacrificing himself to himself to absolve himself of the sins he gets in such a snit about when the creation he made does what he made it possible for them to do.
Zebra seemingly wants to absolve himself from all responsibility in life, but we all know that doesn't work. You can't take an unreality of life, something that is just absolutely false in this world and make an argument using that logic to prove something. Clearly, individuals are charged with responsibility if they demonstrate cognitive ability. So if Zebra has any cognitive ability and I think he does, he is responsible for his actions. Adam and Eve demonstrated their ability to think and reason. In fact, Eve, believed what the serpent told her above what God told her, thanks to the cunning approach that played on her desire to be like God, knowing good and evil. But let's look at this temptation more closely. She wasn't hungry or starving or in need of that physical fruit. She had scores of other fruit trees to eat from. Did she think to ask God about what the serpent said? She easily could have said, "Hold on, I'm going to talk with the Lord God about this. If He wants us to have this knowledge, He'll give it to us in due time, but He clearly told us not to eat the fruit on this tree or we'll die."
Couple of issues w/ the Eden story, if I may.
Genesis 2:8 (NKJV) The LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. 9 And out of the ground the LORD God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. ...
2:15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
18 And the LORD God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” |
Please note that:
(1) Eve had not yet been made when God warned Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, lest he die. We have no evidence that God warned her, too, & in fact he may have been setting her up. (Oops)
When Eve spoke back to the serpent she clearly understood the command. No "oops" there. The Lord God talked every day with Adam and Eve. They knew what He was like - kind and gentle and understanding and very quick to teach them things they needed to know.
(2) Adam was not to |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Hell, your final destination?
