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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/05/2008 : 04:54:03
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As I read through the news each morning, I am sometimes caused to wonder: is there anyone else in the world wallowing as happily in pathetic ignorence as the general population of the US? We believe in all sorts of utter nonsense, as has been discussed in here many times, with more intellectual garbage arriving every day. Often, I find myself in despair.
But not any more! It would seem that our Limey cousins are just as rattle-brained as ourselves. | Britons are losing their grip on reality, according to a poll out Monday which showed that nearly a quarter think Winston Churchill was a myth while the majority reckon Sherlock Holmes was real. |
Of course, this is just one, little poll and probably not really definitive so it should be shelved as something interesting but inconsequential until supporting studied are done.
But y'know, some people'll believe anything if it's silly enough....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 06:07:20 [Permalink]
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| I dunno, I think its a worldwide phenomenon. Americans are just better at fooling themselves about America. As I showed elsewhere, many people in Latin America sincerly believe that Smurfs are very real and very evil, ala Blue Fairies. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 06:10:22 [Permalink]
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Anyone remember the Amityville House Horror? That haunting was sold as real early on but later revealed to be a hoax. As a kid - I was born in '69 - I remember my parents, extended family and their friends having long conversations about what happened there, the nature of evil spirits and haunting, and so on. For example, did you know evil spirits cannot cross over water? So if you happen to move into a haunted house and the spirit not only drives you out but also follows you, you can always cross a river or, better yet, move to Europe to be rid of them.
These were adults talking in front of impressionable children and accepting this hocus pocus bull shit as real. When I think back on that I marvel at the lunacy of it all.
Just two weekends ago I was discussing the primaries with a brother and my mother and I mentioned I would never vote for a candidate who says they don't believe in evolution. (Three of the Republican candidates still on thte ticket at the time had gone on record as creationists). Guess who else I then found out doesn't believe in evolution? (Or global warming for that matter...) Never mind that a well established science isn't even a matter of 'belief' that you can just toss out because you don't like the broader implications.... Just try explaining that idea to someone who doesn't understand or give a shit about the pricinples of science. <argh>
This is my own family for fucks sake!! Needless to say we don't agree on much. Oh and by the way, I'm a college educated liberal elitist. And that's most concerning of all - our conservative politicians, in their shameless pursuit of power, have established the belief that the educated class and the educational institutions in America are not to be trusted.... One can imagine where such an ethic could take us. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 02/05/2008 06:13:39 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 06:53:32 [Permalink]
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| The Land of milk and honey? |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/05/2008 : 07:29:56 [Permalink]
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I can understand places with a high illiteracy percentage (I've read that the illiteracy rate in much of the Mid-East is as much as 30%), but in so-called "First World" countries where education is a high priority? Something ain't right.
I wonder if credulity & gullibility are genetic disorders.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 08:03:00 [Permalink]
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| "First World" countries where education is a high priority? |
Well there's your problem you assumed that education is a high priority in the US. We are far more concerned with preventing our children from learning that which we abhor. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 08:17:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
I can understand places with a high illiteracy percentage (I've read that the illiteracy rate in much of the Mid-East is as much as 30%), but in so-called "First World" countries where education is a high priority? Something ain't right.
I wonder if credulity & gullibility are genetic disorders.
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Part of the problem we're dealing with in the US is the type of Freedom of Speech we embrace. People can more or less knowingly and blatantly lie and mislead the public in any sector of our culture without restriction. And this right is shamelessly exploited to manipulate the public to spend money on, to vote for, to support idiotic things and ideas.
So you have blue collar folks in Kansas voting for GW Bush thinking he's going to make America a more moral place, which is needed because of the liberal War on Christmas and the baby murdering for scientific research epidemic. But in fact GW is working hard to structure the economy so this jack nut in Kansas is forced into a lower wage job, can't buy health care, doesn't have access to decent education for his children, and doesn't have the means to eat and buy medicine at the same time when he retires. And GW's also pushing his "culture of responsibility" so the rest of the country, and probably this guy himself, believes his social and economic distress is his fault and he doesn't deserve any help. And all the while the majority prays to Jesus and contradicts everything they actually do by pretending to try to live the Christian ideal.
I'm all about freedom, especially that of speech, but come on. You can't have a functioning society where the political and social leadership is both completely lacking in personal integrity and legally allowed to blatanly lie to the public about anything and everything that suits them. Ok, you probably can have a function society, but not one that is compassionate and fair to it's less influential citizens. |
-Chaloobi
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 08:50:43 [Permalink]
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fithy:
I wonder if credulity & gullibility are genetic disorders. |
And I wonder if credulity and gullibility are evolutionary baggage. I have often suspected that it takes some effort to be skeptical and we pretty much know that critical thinking is a learned behavior. There is something very appealing about magical thinking. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 09:35:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
fithy:
I wonder if credulity & gullibility are genetic disorders. |
And I wonder if credulity and gullibility are evolutionary baggage. I have often suspected that it takes some effort to be skeptical and we pretty much know that critical thinking is a learned behavior. There is something very appealing about magical thinking.
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Maybe it helps cement tribal relationships and congeal leadership within groups. Think of a tribe full of gullible morons who'll believe and act on whatever the leader says vs. a tribe of independant minded jaded skeptics who tell the leader where he can stuff his BS. Provided the leader's reasonably smart, in a 'primitive' hunter-gatherer style setting, which group is likley to do better overall?
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-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 02/05/2008 09:35:55 |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 10:08:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Maybe it helps cement tribal relationships and congeal leadership within groups. Think of a tribe full of gullible morons who'll believe and act on whatever the leader says vs. a tribe of independent minded jaded skeptics who tell the leader where he can stuff his BS. Provided the leader's reasonably smart, in a 'primitive' hunter-gatherer style setting, which group is likely to do better overall? |
If I may paraphrase your conjecture, (satirically) -
Think of a small clique who manipulate the voting base of self-described conservatives who are in turn, gullible morons who'll believe and act on whatever the leader says vs. independent minded jaded liberals who tell the leader where he can stuff his BS. Provided the leader's reasonably smart, in America, a 'primitive' oil hunter-gatherer, corporation dominated setting, which group is likely to do better economically overall?
Of course the economic benefits in this case only apply to the ruling clique and not to the poor among the blind conservative supporters or the (hopefully) growing number of liberal dissenters.
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 10:45:42 [Permalink]
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| There is something very appealing about magical thinking. |
Why is that? I agree, heck I love the Harry Potter books and all that magical stuff. When I read it I think to my self that it would be so cool if it were real.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 10:57:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Chippewa
Originally posted by chaloobi
Maybe it helps cement tribal relationships and congeal leadership within groups. Think of a tribe full of gullible morons who'll believe and act on whatever the leader says vs. a tribe of independent minded jaded skeptics who tell the leader where he can stuff his BS. Provided the leader's reasonably smart, in a 'primitive' hunter-gatherer style setting, which group is likely to do better overall? |
If I may paraphrase your conjecture, (satirically) -
Think of a small clique who manipulate the voting base of self-described conservatives who are in turn, gullible morons who'll believe and act on whatever the leader says vs. independent minded jaded liberals who tell the leader where he can stuff his BS. Provided the leader's reasonably smart, in America, a 'primitive' oil hunter-gatherer, corporation dominated setting, which group is likely to do better economically overall?
Of course the economic benefits in this case only apply to the ruling clique and not to the poor among the blind conservative supporters or the (hopefully) growing number of liberal dissenters.
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Funny analogy. I think the difference is that probably the 'primitive' group would overall do better but in modern society, it's maybe the opposite. Or maybe not. It may depend on the leadership.
If you have a good leader who accepts the concept that the state is there to serve the interests of all its citizens to the extent possible, maybe it doesn't matter if she gained power through lies and deceit. The biggest problem with our President over the last 8 years is not how GW got into office as much as he's an incompetant jackass. If we had a quality leader would we care so much if he was a lying sonofabitch? But on the other hand, would a quality leader need to be a lying sonofabitch? |
-Chaloobi
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 14:37:38 [Permalink]
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WARNING!
ATTENTION ALL NEO-VICTORIANS!
The following post contains phraseology and images that may be terribly damaging to the morés, sense of propriety, and political correctness of anyone under the age of 8, or inclined to priggishness. Also, for those who work in a priggish workplace, keep an eye out out for the Thought Police!
Filthy.....
| But y'know, some people'll believe anything if it's silly enough.... |
 The Cottingley Fai....er, Phantasms had nothing on these two two-spirits!: |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 15:44:18 [Permalink]
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Filthy.....
As the post above is likely to be my last before my execution by the PCTP, I have to express a few final thoughts on your OP in this thread.
We live in the wrong country, one that primarily worships God and money. There are three words in that sentence that are just wrong:
1. Worships - No human being with a working brain should worship anything!
2. God. A non-existent Father Figure concocted to control, confuse, and comfort the infantile flocks that must follow! Totally counter-productive!
3. Money. Something designed to be a medium of exchange allowing cooperative civilization, but what has become an instrument of coercion and dominance, defining the prototypical society of the haves and the have-nots.
For the most part, those of above-average intelligence and ability accrue most of the money, and the power-inclined of those inevitably rule the land. Money means education, money means health, largely money means survival, and control, in our Republican country.
Better nutrition, hygiene, and living conditions produce healthier, brighter babies. Education produces more competent citizens. Adequate finances are necessary for all four conditions. This country desperately needs some redistribution of the wealth!
I am neither a Communist nor a Socialist but I strongly feel that at something well under a hundred million dollars, accumulation of wealth should be severely curtailed by taxation, and benefits for "the masses" (at least 90% of the population) seriously increased.
This from a serious beneficiary of the the American capitalist free-enterprise make-as-much-money-as-you-possibly-can entrepeneur ethic.
I've been there, done that, and have to admit that I like it: but nonetheless I feel that, at some (fairly high) level, Americans should be forced to do unto others as they would have others do unto them!
In a generation or two, we could have a much healthier, happier, better educated, more effective and competent population.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 16:16:11 [Permalink]
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kil said:
| And I wonder if credulity and gullibility are evolutionary baggage. |
Probably. It likely stems from the fact that as children we defer to authority, which is an obvious survival mechanism. It takes experience, education, and effort to legitimately question authority.
People learn patterns of thinking, and if the authorities in your life are credulous, you probably will be too.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 15:43:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
fithy:
I wonder if credulity & gullibility are genetic disorders. |
And I wonder if credulity and gullibility are evolutionary baggage. I have often suspected that it takes some effort to be skeptical and we pretty much know that critical thinking is a learned behavior. There is something very appealing about magical thinking.
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I dunno about credulity and gullibility in general, but I'd bet that our tendency to see Elvis, or the Virgin Mary, or Lenin in a grilled cheese sandwich or burrito is evolutionary baggage.
The early hominid who sees tigers in the tall grass when they aren't there is jumpy. The early hominid who doesn't see the tigers who really are in the tall grass is lunch.  |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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We are not alone.....
