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Regal Archer
New Member
4 Posts |
 Posted - 03/01/2008 : 09:49:35
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Hello There,
I've recently compile a short video on religion, atheism and the existence of god and would be most interested in your gracious comments and thoughts.
Atheists are Evil and Religion is Satanic
Thanks,
edited to fix code --Cune
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Edited by - Cuneiformist on 03/01/2008 09:50:46
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2008 : 10:09:11 [Permalink]
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You're video stops at the 6:40 mark, right before you were about to provide a challenge to the man who sees no reason to believe god exists. Beyond that point, there is no audio. Either a technical snafu, or god finds your proof so powerful that he is suppressing it for fear of eliminating the need for faith.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2008 : 10:19:47 [Permalink]
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Regal Archer.......
You have obviously put a lot of effort into this project, but if you expect anyone to be able to comment intelligently on it, you must re-do the audio!
Your accent is charming enough, as most brit accents are, but your delivery is abysmal! You speak far too rapidly, your enunciation is terribly muffled and muddled, and on the YouTube clip I watched, all sound cut off about two-thirds through the clip, and all a viewer got to the end was a series of mostly pretty images, with no sound to integrate them with spoken text!
I got a kind of general impression that you are pitching some sort of theism, but damned if I could make out any of the thrust or essence of your presentation!
I would suggest redoing the entire audio track and coming back! Oh, and tone down that [i]basso[/b] in the echo chamber! He sounds like he's drowning, and one wishes that he would hurry up and get it over!
I hope this is a beta! If not, you are doomed! |
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Regal Archer
New Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2008 : 13:15:49 [Permalink]
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Thanks for your thoughts and input...
You are correct the voice is fairly abysmal, it was supposed to be somewhat stirring, but perhaps it is overdone. He does tone it down towards the end...
Alright... here's a correction
For some odd reason You Tube's encoding distorted the audio.
Atheists are Evil and Religion is Satanic
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| Edited by - Regal Archer on 03/01/2008 13:21:55 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2008 : 17:38:07 [Permalink]
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During the first eight minutes, I don't think I heard anything to be overly excited bout.
Then, as the time came to address "Intelligent Design", there was a comparison between Newton's law of Gravity, and General Relativity. "There are generally two explanations of Gravity: General Relativity and Newton's theory of Gravitation." ...and then goes on to compare the difference between them with "The Design Method and Evolution" including claiming that both (design and evolution) being logically sound.
To "prove" that something has been designed he presents a number of aspects that he believes are evidence of design:
1) Exterior symmetry.
"It's too beautiful to be come by by chance of evolution" nothing more. Well, pointing to the exterior of a car which happens to be fairly symmetrical...
It still is basically an argument from incredulity.
2) Interior Asymmetry.
Here ends the first part of the video. We never get to know what "Interior Asymmetry" means.
(without knowing what the second video will say, I predict it will also contain arguments of incredulity)
At the moment, the time where I live, it's 1:40 am and I'm too tired and too drunk to continue with a logical analysis of the second video. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
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Collateralmurder. |
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Regal Archer
New Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 03:25:28 [Permalink]
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I thank you all for your replies.
I would just like to say...
Dr Mabuse, perhaps you should have waited until you sobered up before posting as I stated quite categorically that "It's too beautiful to be come about by chance or evolution" was a weak argument. No incredulity necessary, it's just a process of determining what is designed from what is naturally occurring. (No evidence against evolution either...)
As for your statements on "Interior Asymmetry", you actually didn't make any.... |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 04:32:41 [Permalink]
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I don't care how drunk he was, the statement is 100% valid.
"It's too beautiful to be come about by chance or evolution" Is not an arguement, beauty is subjective and not evidence of anything. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 05:33:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Regal Archer
...it's just a process of determining what is designed from what is naturally occurring. |
Aside from items designed by humans, how does one tell the difference between that which is natural and that which is designed? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Regal Archer
New Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 06:05:23 [Permalink]
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Define natural...
Also Smurf, read again. I said -"It's too beautiful to be come about by chance or evolution" IS a weak statement.- |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 06:39:08 [Permalink]
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| Sorry, brainfart. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 09:20:11 [Permalink]
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I'd say that your main argument is that many facets of the universe show features that are compatible with the notion of design.
Also, I think you take many points that could be used (and more convincingly) AGAINST the notion of design.
For example, you mentioned vestigial organs and describe them as a proof of design, as many designed objects show similar features. But that it is rather weak as unused features are rarely included without compelling reasons.
Computer have extra-slots, because people update them. But it does not really apply to the moles you show, unless you expect them to graft themselves a pair of eye at some point?
Similarly, cars have empty slots because other car models have them and it would cost more to create a new mold for these parts. It is not good design; it is economical compromise.
Perfection is attained, not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
-Antoine de St. Exupery |
Vestigial organs seem more consistent with a gradual (and blind) evolution.
Especially considering the many blunders we can see. The appendices, for example, has no function but to get infected and kill us. Our immune system likes to get crazy and attack us causing auto-immune diseases; allergies or septic shocks.
All these 'errors' are obvious enough for even us to realise. How come the infinitely wise designer, at the origin of such intricate and complex creations such as the dance of the DNA polymerases, could suddenly act with such incompetence?
Once again, it seems more like some evolutionary process, hitting at random and only keeping the organisms that worked 'well enough', have taken place.
A similarly comment could be made about the 'Progression' section.
Sure, it is not an absolute disproving of design, but it much more consistent with the notion of evolution from common ancestors.
About symmetry?
Well, there are evolutionary advantages to symmetry, especially at the external level, you can not run well if one of your leg is shorter than the other, so external symmetry is a logical product of evolution.
Additionally, symmetry could be simplified to say that it allows to synthetize a whole organism using only half the genes. So, once again, evolution works by selecting what that 'works well enough'.
On the other hand, why do our human designs show such symmetry? Firstly, for the same reason that natural ones, it sometime just work better (a convergent evolution of sort).
One more complex reason is that we like symmetry and tend to find it more beautiful; because we have been conditioned to do so by looking at the world around us.
| Evolution can not develop organs |
Says who? Evolution can definitively develop new genes and new sets of genes (it has been observed many times). And what is a new organ but the expression of new genes?
| You would not be able to tell the difference between immediately prepared world and progressively prepared world |
Well, the fossils you show at this point are a good example. What the Hell are they doing here if the world just appeared? Unless God wants to trick us about the actual age of the Earth (and yes, we could never know) they clearly hint at a world that existed before us.
A world, indeed, that was very different than our own and evolved before being acceptable to us. Why not creating the world right from the beginning, then? Seems like a pretty circonvoluted way to do things which, once again, scream of randomness rather than design.
Moreover, the world of the dinosaurs was not so different from our own in term of the composition of the atmospheres or the average temperature... And yet, men were not to appear for dozens of millions of years. So, saying that mankind appeared as soon as the world was ready for it is just not true.
| Nothing new was learned or understood in the creation of these creatures |
Not true, some features show a clear evolution and increase in complexity through the fossil records. The case of the eye is particularly well documented as it progressively gained in complexity. But similar progression have been demonstrated for the evolution of flowers or walking limbs or viviparity.
It seems that a lot of video could be summarized as 'the observed features of the universe are not incompatible with the existence of a designer'.
That is true, and such a designer can not be disproved.
But Ockham razor do tell us that if two theories explain a phenomenon equally well, we should select the one that make the less new assumptions. We already know that random events happen but we need to make several big assumptions to consider a designer.
So, logically, the most logical position is that of atheism.
I do not think, personally that you can prove or disprove the existence of God using reason and logic. It is, by definition, beyond or understanding.
Hence, the fact that it is a matter of faith.
If you lack the absolute self-evidence that faith brings, you can either be an atheist (I see no reason to believe, so I don't) or, like me, agnostic (I see no compelling argument to believe, but I am not sure that I'd see any. So, I am reserving my judgement). |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 14:31:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Vestigial organs seem more consistent with a gradual (and blind) evolution.
Especially considering the many blunders we can see. The appendices, for example, has no function but to get infected and kill us. |
I don't think that's entirely true. (Edited to add: The part about Appendix having no function)
Granted, it does no longer have the function it used to have. But I've read about some researchers thinking it serves as a "biological safe-deposit" for intestinal bacteria. In case something happens that "flushes" out all intestinal contents including symbiotic bacteria (in case of really bad runs, or antibiotics), the intestines can quickly get re-populated from the appendix.
(Then you would be less likely to require a fecal transplant)
Edited to clarify my intention, in blue. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 07/09/2008 04:09:59 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2008 : 04:08:11 [Permalink]
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| I thought it looked more like Simon using the "has no function" meaning, since he referenced the appendix as having no function. I'm arguing against that, by saying that it does have a function, though not quite the same as it used to have. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/09/2008 : 04:20:09 [Permalink]
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Once, whilst in Rome, I went to the House of Vesta to visit the Vestigial Virgins therein. I had read all about them, of course, so imagine my suprise when I found out that they were indeed vestigial, as none of them were virgins at all..... Oh, wait.... What was the topic again?
Oh yes, I remember now. We have our share of vestigial bits and pieces floating around our bodies. The coccyx (what a fascinatingly spelled word!) is a prime example of this, as it is a mere reminant of it's past glory. But reminant though it might be, it yet has a use, that of anchoring certain, minor muscles. The kicker here is that those muscles could be anchored more efficently elsewhere, with the added advantage of removing a quite vulnerable feature of our bodies. Ask anyone who has broken the coccyx what it's like. It's extrodinarly painful and can be at least temporarly crippling. And sometimes worse. Evolution, that biological blunderer, screwed it up again.
Another example is our hair. It is not thick enough to keep us warm nor efficently protect us from the sun, and yet we all have some. An argument can be made that it is useful in attracting a mate, but this one is refuted by the bald guys, and the gals who shave their entire bodies save (and sometimes including) their heads. They seem to do all right. And the hair, sparse as it is, often provides hearth & home for certain arthropods commonly called "crotch crickets," or Papillion d'amour. Another, related species of arthropod is the bane of the school marm, who, every year, sends some of her charges home with instructions on how to get rid of head hoppers, often resulting in angry and sometimes colorful telephone calls from the afflicted child's parents.
My favorite vestigial organ is the serpent's second lung. It is not only solid evidence of a common ancestor for all snakes, but a beautiful example of evolution in spavined action as well. Snakes have only one working lung. The other is a shrivvled, little thing that cannot breath but remains with the reptile, anyway. At this writing, no use whatsoever has been found for this organ, unlike the former, hind legs of the afore-mentioned, common ancestor.
In some species, pythons notably, these legs remain with the males in the form of small spurs at the outer edge of the cloaca called "claspers." They are used vigorously in mating, but are vestigial none the less. Oh, and before I forget it, Boids (pythons & boas) actually have the utterly useless reminants of a pelvic girdle. Yeah, yeah, I know: another freakin' muscle anchor, but what of the myraid other species that lack it? Did ya ever see a cobra on crutches? Whales too, have this pelvic girdle, but by now, you get my drift so I won't go into it further.
All of this simply shows that some vestigial organs can be quite useful, but that doesn't mean that they are anything but the pitiful reminants of an organ that became used no longer and was put to a different purpose, mostly a lesser one.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Atheism, Evil, Stupidity and Religion
