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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 04/06/2008 : 11:32:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Pelayo
I wish I could change my user name to "The Cynical Skeptic."
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You can always put it in your signature...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/06/2008 : 12:08:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Pelayo
I wish I could change my user name to "The Cynical Skeptic."
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I rather like it the way it is. "Pelayo" or "Don Pelayo," is Spanish for Plagius of Asturiau, a later Visigoth king -- 700s CE, or thereabouts.
I'm curious; how did you select it? Are you, as am I and others here, a history freak?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2008 : 07:05:13 [Permalink]
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On a related note (to climate change, not Christian, Visigoth despots) I found this: A warmer world could be a more explosive one. Global warming is having a much more profound effect than just melting ice caps – it is melting magma too.
Vatnajökull is the largest ice cap in Iceland, and is disappearing at a rate of 5 cubic kilometres per year.
Carolina Pagli of the University of Leeds, UK, and Freysteinn Sigmundsson of the University of Iceland have calculated the effects of the melting on the crust and magma underneath.
They say that, as the ice disappears, it relieves the pressure exerted on the rocks deep under the ice sheet, increasing the rate at which it melts into magma. An average of 1.4 cubic kilometres has been produced every century since 1890, a 10% increase on the background rate.
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This is interesting in that the Krakatoa Eruption of 1883, a single volcano albeit a huge one, caused great damage world wide.
"Geographic effects
As a result of the huge amount of material deposited by the volcano, the surrounding ocean floor was drastically altered. It is estimated that as much as 18-21 km³ of ignimbrite was deposited over an area of 1.1 million km², largely filling the 30-40 m deep basin around Krakatoa. The land masses of Verlaten and Lang were increased, and volcanic ash continues to be a significant part of the geological composition of these islands. Poolsche Hoed ("Polish Hat") disappeared. A new rock islet called Bootsmansrots ('Bosun's Rock', a fragment of Danan) was left.
Two nearby sandbanks (called Steers and Calmeyer after the two naval officers who investigated them) were built up into islands by ashfall, but the sea later washed them away. Seawater on hot volcanic deposits on Steers and Calmeyer caused steam which some people mistook for continued eruption.
The fate of Krakatoa itself has been the subject of some dispute among geologists. It was originally proposed that the island had been blown apart by the force of the eruption. However, most of the material deposited by the volcano is clearly magmatic in origin and the caldera formed by the eruption is not extensively filled with deposits from the 1883 eruption. This indicates that the island subsided into an empty magma chamber at the end of the eruption sequence, rather than having been destroyed during the eruptions.
Global climate
In the year following the eruption, average global temperatures fell by as much as 1.2 degrees Celsius. Weather patterns continued to be chaotic for years, and temperatures did not return to normal until 1888. The eruption injected an unusually large amount of sulfur dioxide (SO2) gas high into the stratosphere which was subsequently transported by high-level winds all over the planet. This led to a global increase in sulfurous acid (H2SO3) concentration in high-level cirrus clouds. The resulting increase in cloud reflectivity (or albedo) would reflect more incoming light from the sun than usual, and cool the entire planet until the suspended sulfur fell to the ground as acid precipitation.[9]"
So perhaps if the Ring of Fire lets go, along with others including the Yellowstone Caldera, the atmosphere-dusting proponents will get their wish. They won't like it....
Edit: for more on volcanos, their number and locations, go here.
Indexed tectonic map of the world
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 04/07/2008 07:24:52 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2008 : 13:49:49 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| So the man preaches a doomsday message and then invests in a corporation that stands to profit heavily off of the proclaimed solution to the problem and you dismiss this as just capitalism? |
And I suppose you think that Wal-Mart's president would have a "conflict of interest" if he says, "I think everyone should shop at Wal-Mart." |
No. But I think if the Wal-Mart president were preaching a doomsday message and then mentioned that one way you can advert doomsday is by shopping at Wal-Mart then he will not have helped his doomsday creditability.
| Gore says "buy offsets" and owns a company which sells them. Gore doesn't say "buy offsets from me. |
But, coincidentally, he does sell them.
| " He's not even trying to keep his company a secret, |
I never said that he was.
| nor are the offsets free (only a fraction of the money he spends on offsets would come back to him through any salary he draws or his investment in the company, which probably amounts to millions of dollars that he can't simply take out and spend somewhere else). |
But he does make a profit off of his doomsday message which was my whole point. When you seek to gain in your finances from your doomsday message, no matter how small, it will discredit your doomsday message. How much or how little is certainly debatable but the fact is that it would. Doesn't Al already have enough money? Why does he need to make money on MMGW as well?
| Haliburton had a conflict of interest because it was the government creating a huge contract with a company in which a major player worked for the government. |
And look what it did for Chenneys cred....
| Why is it that every time the liberals paint a doom and gloom picture the solution always involves taxes and more of them? |
Because the motto of the United States of America is not "every man for himself." |
I agree with your statment but back to my question, why is it that every time the liberals paint a doom and gloom picture the solution always involves taxes and more of them?
| As if these buffoons don't get enough of my money to pi$$ away already. |
Are you working towards fixing that problem? |
As best I can.
| And why does not the power company give up it's profits and give people free or cheep electricity? Why don't the phone companies give up their profits? And then everyone gets a free phone. Why don't the evil banks give up their profits so everyone can have a free house. Toyota has way to much damn money so why don't they pass out free |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2008 : 13:50:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Bill scott
I am calling all to arms and naming the biggest contributors by name.
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That would be the average American Joe.
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Wrong! |
No, right!
According to this table.
It clearly says that average American Joe has a carbon emission of 20.4
While average Chinese Chan Siu Ming has a carbon emission of 3.84
An American is polluting five times as much as a Chinese.
| China pumps out more CO2 per year then anyone. And India is on pace to pass the US soon, if they have not already. |
China's and India's increase of fossil CO2 output is concerning indeed. China and India are reluctant to sign a treaty that for any forseeable future prevents Chinese and Indians to reach the same level of economic prosperity as Americans, simply because they don't think one American is worth five Chinese. This is the inequality in the ecological treaties the American government has tried to force upon China, and you have to be an utter moron if you fail to get the Chinese point of view.
The American Joe in his SUV is a drop in the bucket compared to these guys.
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Just as it should be. Joe has to lower his fossil fuel consumption drastically if he is to convince the Chinese Chan Siu Ming to hold his increase. It's Human Nature 101.
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You can break it down all you like but the fact remains if X amount of CO2 is going to push us over the tipping scale then X amount is going to push us over the tipping scale, period. And the fact is that China contributes more in CO2 towards X then does the US, period. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2008 : 14:57:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Actually, in a nut shell, my point was/is that if doomsday lays in the balance would not Al's message be taken more seriously by the skeptics if Al was not making money on the doomsday prophecy? |
Well, see, there's the problem: those so-called skeptics are more focused on the appearance of impropriety on Al Gore's part than they are on the actual science, making Gore's message impossible for the alleged skeptics to swallow no matter what.
Gore's actions aren't evidence. A proper skeptic weighs the evidence, and not whether one self-appointed messenger appears to buy his own message. Everyone you included who might take Al Gore's message more seriously if he put every ounce of effort towards living his message isn't a skeptic. They are cynics and political hacks.
And to prove their lack of seriousness with regards to the science, they use terms like "doomsday prophecy" and expect, hypocritically, to be taken seriously. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2008 : 16:40:47 [Permalink]
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I fail to understand this fascination with Gore's money. As long as he didn't steal it and pays his taxes up to date, who gives a dingo's kidney how much he has?
As to having a company that produces enviornmental products, why should he not? Would you prefer that he has a smokestack?
He's doing something that he believes in to the potential benefit of us all, and provides a living to X number of families in the process -- where is the evil in that?
I'll say it again, Bill, attacking Gore is a waste of time that does nothing to further your agenda, whatever that might be (I haven't figgered that one out yet, either). If you must attack someone, go after China and India. A barrage of e-mails to your representatives and their embassies will accomplish a lot more than bitching about someone who is actually trying to do something about a very real problem.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 04/07/2008 16:45:06 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2008 : 17:11:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
And the fact is that China contributes more in CO2 towards X then does the US, period. |
And the fact is that the average U.S. citizen contributes fives times more CO2 towards X than the average Chinese citizen does. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2008 : 18:03:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
On a related note (to climate change, not Christian, Visigoth despots) I found this: [quote]A warmer world could be a more explosive one. Global warming is having a much more profound effect than just melting ice caps – it is melting magma too...... |
We might also have to be a bit concerned with consistently higher temperatures starting to melt the permafrost which exists just a few feet under vast areas of otherwise grassy green tundra above the tree lines, not only in Alaska but also Canada and Russia. There's a lot of methane from ancient grasses and such trapped in that ice and as it gradually melts, more and more of it could be released into the atmosphere, trapping heat and returning Earth to her distant prehistoric much warmer era - (of mass extinctions). |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2008 : 18:48:28 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| And the fact is that the average U.S. citizen contributes fives times more CO2 towards X than the average Chinese citizen does. |
That's my point. The Chinese are just starting to get a taste for modern living and they have already passed the US. With a billion and some people wanting to get in on all the fun their energy demands are only to grow. So far nothing can compete with coal from an economic side. So we all know how the Chinese are filling this every increasing demand for energy, coal. Then there is India…
| Well, see, there's the problem: those so-called skeptics are more focused on the appearance of impropriety on Al Gore's part than they are on the actual science, making Gore's message impossible for the alleged skeptics to swallow no matter what. |
No not at all. Al Gore was in the subject of this thread so any focusing is warranted. Second, we have already debated the science. I will cite ten years of no rise in the earths overall mean temperature as evidence against the MMGW theory and you will say that this not enough time in the overall picture to reach that conclusion. No matter how much further we discuss it we both stick to our original position, etc… etc… etc…
| Gore's actions aren't evidence. |
They are evidence when discussing Al Gore.
| A proper skeptic weighs the evidence, |
I agree.
| and not whether one self-appointed messenger appears to buy his own message. |
I was referencing the self-appointed one because he was the subject of the thread.
| Everyone you included who might take Al Gore's message more seriously if he put every ounce of effort towards living his message isn't a skeptic. They are cynics and political hacks. |
You say that big oil don't need all them profits. I say Al Gore don't need any more money and that the fact that he does make money off of his cause just weakens the creditability of his message. But that's the problems we run into when we start dabbling in socialism. Who gets to decide how much is enough and for whom it is enough for?
| And to prove their lack of seriousness with regards to the science, they use terms like "doomsday prophecy" |
It is a doomsday prophecy if there ever was one.
| and expect, hypocritically, to be taken seriously. |
I have never expected you to take me seriously on any doomsday prophecy of mine.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 04/07/2008 19:56:01 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2008 : 18:55:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
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| I fail to understand this fascination with Gore's money. As long as he didn't steal it and pays his taxes up to date, who gives a dingo's kidney how much he has? |
But I could say the same thing about the oil people. I won't, but I could.
| As to having a company that produces enviornmental products, why should he not? |
I am just saying his message would ring louder if it were a not for profit enterprise. He already has a lot more money then you or I do. Does he really need more coming from the MMGW cause?
| Would you prefer that he has a smokestack? |
What would he use it for?
| He's doing something that he believes in to the potential benefit of us all, |
Aren't we all?
| and provides a living to X number of families in the process -- where is the evil in that? |
But I am saying he makes much more then the “average" living so why does he need more? And to make it off of the cause!?!?!?!?
| I'll say it again, Bill, attacking Gore is a waste of time that does nothing to further your agenda, whatever that might be (I haven't figgered that one out yet, either). |
My agenda is for you to hold Al-the capitalist-Gore to the same standard as you do the oil people. How much is enough? And at what cost to the creditability of the cause?
| If you must attack someone, go after China and India. |
We will never go after China, we owe them to much money.
| A barrage of e-mails to your representatives and their embassies will accomplish a lot more than bitching about someone who is actually trying to do something about a very real problem. |
It hasn't yet.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2008 : 20:46:50 [Permalink]
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bill lair-for-neoconjesus scott said:
| But I could say the same thing about the oil people |
Show us where Gore is getting corporate wellfare (tax subsidies) to enable and supplement his wealth, then you might have a point.
But, as usual, you are just spouting your hate of old Al. Nothing relevant or reality based to say, just your usual lies.
Can you go learn a new trick or something? You have the "lie" and "strawman" down pat, you should consider expanding your skills. Go practice some non sequitur, or if you're think you can manage it, an illicit quantifier shift! Would at least make it worth responding to most of your posts again.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2008 : 22:35:46 [Permalink]
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Hey, Bill scott!.....
How about answering my post? Or why not? Bill scott.....
Bill - As you appear to be one of the more magnetic members of SFN and I am relatively new here (since last August), would you mind posting a few - whatever you are comfortable with - biographical facts about yourself; the basics - age, gender, occupation, education, religious persuasion, political position (this year), extreme interests, marital status, socioeconomic position (what I really mean is income and net worth, which is damn nosy, but maybe you can give me some idea without bragging too much or inviting IRS attention) and anything else you may care to divulge about your person that may cast light on your world-view.
I have considerable interest in who you are due to the ambivilance of intellectualization that I see in your posts. You pose an interesting puzzle to me with regards to your apparent embrace of religious fundamentalism, neanderthal politics, and gut-bucket capitalism, seasoned with considerable intellectual resource and competent expression and debate skills. - in short, a study in contrasts.
If you have any interest in the same personal information of mine, I will be happy to provide it, of course! |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2008 : 22:40:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
We will never go after China, we owe them to much money. |
The Chinese will "go after" themselves if given the opportunity. For example, they already buy the most energy-efficient locomotives available because they also happen to be the most cost-effective, long term. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Al tells it like it is.
