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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 04/08/2008 : 00:05:37 [Permalink]
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bng said:
| I have considerable interest in who you are due to the ambivilance of intellectualization that I see in your posts. You pose an interesting puzzle to me with regards to your apparent embrace of religious fundamentalism, neanderthal politics, and gut-bucket capitalism, seasoned with considerable intellectual resource and competent expression and debate skills. |
I was going to say you are giving him too much credit(but on consideration it seems unlikely you have misjudged him that drastically.... but you did have some complement for the imbecile jerome...), I can't quite tell if you are being sarcastic or are sucking up to get him to answer your question.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 00:27:53 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
You know I suck! |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 04:30:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Bill scott
We will never go after China, we owe them to much money. |
The Chinese will "go after" themselves if given the opportunity. For example, they already buy the most energy-efficient locomotives available because they also happen to be the most cost-effective, long term.
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Right. With "cost-effective" being the key phrase here. That is why they are building new coal fired power plants faster then you or I can count them. "Cost-effective" |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 07:02:27 [Permalink]
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DaveScot, not to be confused with our friend Bill Scott, has an interesting argumentum ad verecundiam titled The Real Inconvenient Truth.
8 April 2008
The REAL Inconvenient Truth
DaveScot
This article makes a lot of points I've made here in the past. The main one being that global warming is a net GOOD thing. Even the IPCC admits that it will be a good thing for at least the next several decades. Food production will increase and cold-related deaths will decline far more than heat-related deaths will increase. If the planet wasn't warming we'd want it to be warming. If CO2 levels weren't growing we'd want them to be growing.
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The article of which he speaks, and has posted, is by one Nigel Lawson.
"By NIGEL LAWSON
The Daily Mail 4/5/08
Over the past half-century, we have become used to planetary scares. In the late Sixties, we were told of a population explosion that would lead to global starvation.
Then, a little later, we were warned the world was running out of natural resources. By the Seventies, when global temperatures began to dip, many eminent scientists warned us that we faced a new Ice Age.
But the latest scare, global warming, has engaged the political and opinion-forming classes to a greater extent than any of these.
The readiness to embrace this fashionable belief has led the present Labour Government, enthusiastically supported by the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, to commit itself to a policy of drastically cutting back carbon dioxide emissions - at huge cost to the British economy and to the living standards not merely of this generation, but of our children's generation, too.
That is why I have written a book about the subject.
Now, I readily admit that I am not a scientist; but then neither are the vast majority of those who espouse the currently fashionable madness. Moreover, most of those scientists who speak with such certainty about global warming and climate change are not climate scientists, or Earth scientists of any kind, and thus have no special knowledge to contribute.
Those who have to take the key decisions aren't scientists either. They are politicians who, having listened cto the opinions of relevant scientists and having studied the evidence, must reach the best decisions they can - just as I did when I was Energy Secretary in Margaret Thatcher's first government in the early Eighties. "
And who pray, is Mr. Lawson? Well, he's a conservative, British politician who was, as stated, Energy Secretary to the woman known as 'Attila the Hen.' He has also written a highly successful diet book and has been been made a life peer, whatever that is, and now holds the title of Baron Lawson of Blaby.
"In government
On the election of Margaret Thatcher's government, Lawson was appointed to the position of Financial Secretary to the Treasury. Although this is the fourth-ranking political position in the British Treasury, Lawson's energy in office was reflected in such measures as the ending of unofficial state controls on mortgage lending, the abolition of exchange controls in October 1979 and the publication of the Medium Term Financial Strategy. This document set the course for both the monetary and fiscal sides of the new government's economic policy, though the extent to which the subsequent trajectory of policy and outcome matched that projected is still a matter for debate.
In the cabinet reshuffle of September 1981, Lawson was promoted to the position of Secretary of State for Energy. In this role his most significant action was to prepare for what he saw as an inevitable full-scale strike in the coal industry (then state-owned since nationalization by the p |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 07:08:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill Scott
Originally posted by Dave W.
nor are the offsets free (only a fraction of the money he spends on offsets would come back to him through any salary he draws or his investment in the company, which probably amounts to millions of dollars that he can't simply take out and spend somewhere else). |
But he does make a profit off of his doomsday message which was my whole point. |
Every single Christian Pastor I've met makes a profit of his doomsday message. He works for the church, and he's collecting salary from it. And preach about doomsday every Sunday. That makes him highly suspect, and his message cannot be trusted.
| When you seek to gain in your finances from your doomsday message, no matter how small, it will discredit your doomsday message. How much or how little is certainly debatable but the fact is that it would. |
Don't you think that the message from your pastor is discredited by the fact that he lifts his salary from the collection box?
And look what it did for Chenneys cred.... |
Yeah, the Christian right got him re-elected. Which speaks volumes of the corrupt moral of the Christian right.
I am just being real. Look, Al can pat himself on the back all he wants but the cold hard facts remain that his offsets, and those that buy them, are being buried in the wake if China and India. I am not saying that to be a defeatist, but rather to shine light on the true situation.
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Yes, but you don't volunteer anything realistic to do about it.
This is a situation where everyone has to pull their weight. It's pretty damn hard to convince India and China to do anything while America sits on it's fat ass complacent with status quo.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 07:37:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Dave W.
And the fact is that the average U.S. citizen contributes fives times more CO2 towards X than the average Chinese citizen does. |
That's my point. The Chinese are just starting to get a taste for modern living and they have already passed the US. |
I see... You think that you're so special that you're worth five times the carbon footprint of a Chinese. (And ten times that of average Indian)
With a billion and some people wanting to get in on all the fun their energy demands are only to grow. So far nothing can compete with coal from an economic side. So we all know how the Chinese are filling this every increasing demand for energy, coal.
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But you don't offer a sollution. I do (and other skeptics do too).
You say that big oil don't need all them profits. I say Al Gore don't need any more money and that the fact that he does make money off of his cause just weakens the creditability of his message. |
Weakens Gore's credibility in your eyes. But you are not a good representative of the people who most desperately need to hear it. You have already made up your mind and decided to ignore any evidence that can show that you are wrong.
There are still many Americans and non-Americans who haven't heard the message but needs to hear it. However Al Gore behaves does not change the validity of his claim. He does have a large carbon footprint, but that footprint is offsetted by the fact that people who become aware of the problem start doing something about it. 1000 people who starts doing something thanks to Gore does more good than Gore does bad. So the net contribution of Gore's actions are positive. And the positive effects are accumulating as time goes by, while Gore's air-travel are temporary.
| But that's the problems we run into when we start dabbling in socialism. Who gets to decide how much is enough and for whom it is enough for? |
People like you are the reason true socialism will never work, no matter how beautiful the idea might be.
That makes me sad.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 09:35:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Well, see, there's the problem: those so-called skeptics are more focused on the appearance of impropriety on Al Gore's part than they are on the actual science, making Gore's message impossible for the alleged skeptics to swallow no matter what. |
No not at all. Al Gore was in the subject of this thread so any focusing is warranted. |
Nonsense. Any person who is willing to give Gore's message more consideration because Gore lives it more isn't a skeptic, because Gore's message comes directly from the science, while his lifestyle does not.| Second, we have already debated the science. I will cite ten years of no rise in the earths overall mean temperature as evidence against the MMGW theory... |
Then go ahead and cite it, please. I've never seen the data supporting such a conclusion. The data clearly show that the time-averaged mean in 2007 is about 0.1°C higher in 2007 than it was in 1998, and individual annual increases in 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2005.| ...and you will say that this not enough time in the overall picture to reach that conclusion. |
It certainly isn't enough time to conclude that MMGW is not occuring, since human activity has gone on for much more than ten years.| No matter how much further we discuss it we both stick to our original position, etc… etc… etc… |
Why do you think that is, Bill? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 11:23:31 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dude |
| Show us where Gore is getting corporate wellfare (tax subsidies) to enable and supplement his wealth, then you might have a point. |
I never said that Al-the capitalist-Gore did receive corporate welfare and I sure don't like the fact that the oil people do. But I was responding to this statement:
| I fail to understand this fascination with Gore's money. As long as he didn't steal it and pays his taxes up to date, who gives a dingo's kidney how much he has? |
I simply reminded all that the oil companies have not broke any laws (that I know of) and they pay taxes so we should not give a dingo's kidney about how much they have. So, in fact, I can say the same thing about the oil people. Not going to but I could.
| But, as usual, you are just spouting your hate of old Al. |
He was the topic of the thread.
| Nothing relevant or reality based to say, just your usual lies. Can you go learn a new trick or something? You have the "lie" and "strawman" down pat, you should consider expanding your skills. Go practice some non sequitur, or if you're think you can manage it, an illicit quantifier shift! |
Oh no, here comes the ageless lier rant, on cue and as expected.
| Would at least make it worth responding to most of your posts again. |
But you already have responded, several times, as is.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 11:37:01 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse |
| nor are the offsets free (only a fraction of the money he spends on offsets would come back to him through any salary he draws or his investment in the company, which probably amounts to millions of dollars that he can't simply take out and spend somewhere else). |
But he does make a profit off of his doomsday message which was my whole point. |
Every single Christian Pastor I've met makes a profit of his doomsday message. He works for the church, and he's collecting salary from it. And preach about doomsday every Sunday. That makes him highly suspect, and his message cannot be trusted. |
Except for most Christian Pastors don't start their pastoral careers already independently wealthy and well above the average living standard, at least most that I know. Without their salary they would not make their next house payment or grocery bill. Not the case for Al-the capitalist-Gore. He would still be able to squeak by without his money he made off of the MMGW cause.
| When you seek to gain in your finances from your doomsday message, no matter how small, it will discredit your doomsday message. How much or how little is certainly debatable but the fact is that it would. |
Don't you think that the message from your pastor is discredited by the fact that he lifts his salary from the collection box? |
If he were flying all over the globe in a private jet I sure might. Take Benny Hinn for example. He has done more to discredit the Gospel message then any one that I know of in my lifetime. He seems to have gotton used to his private jet travels as well.
| And look what it did for Chenneys cred.... |
Yeah, the Christian right got him re-elected. Which speaks volumes of the corrupt moral of the Christian right. |
Actually I think the Christian right got Bush re-elected. Cheney just got to go along for the free ride. Personally I think Cheney should have been tossed aside in 04 and never would have been elected to anything on his own, by the Christian right..
| I am just being real. Look, Al can pat himself on the back all he wants but the cold hard facts remain that his offsets, and those that buy them, are being buried in the wake if China and India. I am not saying that to be a defeatist, but rather to shine light on the true situation. |
Yes, but you don't volunteer anything realistic to do about it. |
Such as?
| This is a situation where everyone has to pull their weight. It's pretty damn hard to convince India and China to do anything while America sits on it's fat ass complacent with status quo. |
You think China is going to cut back on its future ambitions based on whether I drive a Tahoo or a Pruis to work?
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 11:38:10 [Permalink]
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bill liar-for-neoconjesus said:
I simply reminded all that the oil companies have not broke any laws (that I know of) and they pay taxes so we should not give a dingo's kidney about how much they have. So, in fact, I can say the same thing about the oil people. Not going to but I could.
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And, again, if Gore were recieving federal tax subsidies you might have a valid comparison.
Seriously, can you at least try a different fallacy? You are a one-trick weasel, and are boring me to tears.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 11:50:02 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Well, see, there's the problem: those so-called skeptics are more focused on the appearance of impropriety on Al Gore's part than they are on the actual science, making Gore's message impossible for the alleged skeptics to swallow no matter what. |
No not at all. Al Gore was in the subject of this thread so any focusing is warranted. |
Nonsense. Any person who is willing to give Gore's message more consideration because Gore lives it more isn't a skeptic, because Gore's message comes directly from the science, while his lifestyle does not. |
But that is my whole point. How/why does Al Gore become the poster child for MMGW while his lifestyle does not? Certainly there are others who could promote the cause without making a capitalist venture out of it at the same time.
| Second, we have already debated the science. I will cite ten years of no rise in the earths overall mean temperature as evidence against the MMGW theory... |
Then go ahead and cite it, please. I've never seen the data supporting such a conclusion. The data clearly show that the time-averaged mean in 2007 is about 0.1°C higher in 2007 than it was in 1998, and individual annual increases in 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2005. |
This would mean global temperatures have not risen since 1998, prompting some to question climate change theory.
But experts say we are still clearly in a long-term warming trend - and they forecast a new record high temperature within five years.
http://superpunch.blogspot.com/2008/04/global-temperatures-have-not-risen.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7329799.stm
So we will have to renew this discussion in about five years and we should know a lot more by then, according to the experts
| ...and you will say that this not enough time in the overall picture to reach that conclusion. |
It certainly isn't enough time to conclude that MMGW is not occuring, since human activity has gone on for much more than ten years. |
And here is where the circle that I was speaking of begins.
| No matter how much further we discuss it we both stick to our original position, etc… etc… etc… |
Why do you think that is, Bill? |
Because we disagree. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 12:17:26 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dude |
bill liar-for-neoconjesus said:
I simply reminded all that the oil companies have not broke any laws (that I know of) and they pay taxes so we should not give a dingo's kidney about how much they have. So, in fact, I can say the same thing about the oil people. Not going to but I could. |
And, again, if Gore were recieving federal tax subsidies you might have a valid comparison. |
Again(sigh), in response to this:
| I fail to understand this fascination with Gore's money. As long as he didn't steal it and pays his taxes up to date, who gives a dingo's kidney how much he has? |
I stated that some will fail to understand the fascination with the oil people's money and I stated that they didn't break any laws(which corp. wellfare is not illegal) plus they payed taxes, so according to the above statement we should not give a dingo's kidney to how much money they have. Unless we want to dabble in socialism in which I stated then the problem becomes who gets to decide how much is enough and to who it is enough for? So you see the comparison is 100% valid.
You then come in out of left field and after the fact to insist on interjecting welfare into the discussion in an attempt to save face for Al-the capitalist-Gore. Sad really.
| Seriously, can you at least try a different fallacy? You are a one-trick weasel, |
Yes, you have said that several times now.
| and are boring me to tears. |
Try paying attention then. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 04/09/2008 06:22:37 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 12:24:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
But that is my whole point. How/why does Al Gore become the poster child for MMGW while his lifestyle does not? Certainly there are others who could promote the cause without making a capitalist venture out of it at the same time. |
Gore, as I already said, was self-appointed. Should I dismiss all of Christianity because raving lunatics like Fred Phelps and greedy monsters like Pat Robertson are its most-visible self-appointed champions? Certainly there are others who could promote the cause without making a mockery out of it at the same time.You need to read the rest of the article. Only the reporter (a non-expert) claims that "global temperatures have not risen since 1998." The experts quoted all are saying that the "cooling" we're experiencing now is a temporary La Nina effect. Any ten-year claim about now is misrepresentative due to the known climate effects of the Pacific, so it is tremendously misguided to make long-term conclusions based on it. Just think: three years ago the claim "global temperatures have not risen since 1995" would have been, simply put, a lie. And what's with the arbitrary "ten years," anyway? Why not two years or 600 million years? Heck, if we use nine years, we definitely see warming.| No matter how much further we discuss it we both stick to our original position, etc… etc… etc… |
Why do you think that is, Bill? |
Because we disagree. |
I do not stick with my original position because I disagree with you, Bill. Nor do I disagree with you because I'm sticking to my original position. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 15:24:16 [Permalink]
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bill liar-for-neoconjesus said:
Yes, you have said that several times now.
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Its a request. You have repeatedly demonstrated that you are comfortable with the lie and strawman fallacies. You should move on to something more sophisticated.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 23:26:21 [Permalink]
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Bill scott.....
Did you graduate from High School? If so, was it a Christian High School? |
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Al tells it like it is.
