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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
 Posted - 04/25/2002 : 18:36:05 [Permalink]
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I still have questions about it, I just thought that his answer was better than any one ever given to me. Dr. Craig answers this somewhere in that link I gave.
I'm sorry that you look at me as having a "poor sense of self worth"....I have picked the belief in Christianity, because of my personal experience over these past 3 months. I don't have "poor sense of self worth", I just don't have all the answers. I could have been like most christians and just ignored this, but I have an open-mind and try to answer questions and learn things along the way.
God Bless,
Timothy
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2002 : 18:38:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
First off, let me state that I know nothing of the website. I was trying to look for an answer to this question and I came across the site. I didn't know they were mormons...i don't agree with mormonism. Just want that to be known
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So if I get The explanation right, then Jesus admits that there is no justice. And according to you that is OK. We should not even ask for justice, since we would all be of worse if everyone got what he deserved.
Can you copy/paste out of the article where it says that?
I summarized the part wher Jesus is quoted from the bible. The amount of sin the people they are talking about commited has no influence on their eventual fate. A causal and quantified realionship between deed and punishment is an integral part of the concept of Justice. 'They are not getting what they desrve.'
Later Doug explains that we are all sinners and thus all desrve punishment. We should be thankful for those of us who don't get punished quite as bad as they desrved instead of bemoaning the injustice going on.
quote:
quote:
But wait! Who established those conditions? Who made the rules? Who created Hell? Who created evil? Who made the rules that you go to hell, if you never heared of Jesus?
What do you mean by these conditions? I just want to be sure that I'm responding accurately.
God made the rules, of course. He could have chosen them to be much much worse than this if you think about it....although, I don't see anything wrong with his rules. God is like the law...he wants to be obeyed.
Unless you follow Leibniz with the best of all worlds idea you have to agree that he could have organized the whole thing much better then it is.
The conditions I mean are for example the conditions described in the analogy Tokyodreamer quotes in the begining of this topic.
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God didn't create evil. he created the choice for evil, because he wanted us to choose. What did you expect God to do? Program us like robots to act a certain way or do a certain thing? Or to make us like puppets whom have no choice at all?
I thank God for, at least, giving me choice.
If you belive the Bible than you are thanking the wrong guy. God was not the one who gave you a free will and the ability to tell good from evil. It was the other guy that told Eve about the apple. Apperantly God was rather angry about the whole incident and kicked them out of their home because of it.
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Your next question is, who made the rules that you go to Hell?
God makes the rules just as governments make rules over people. Although, I am a christian, I do agree with you guys on some of these subjects...I hope that I can build my knowledge up in Christ like Dr. Craig has and answer tough questions like these one day. Until, I find those answers, I'm just glad God didn't make the rules worse than they are now.
God made the rules and we should be thankful that he did not make them worse? God wants to be obeyed like governments want to be obeyed?
Comparing God with the law or the government does not makes much sense unless you can vote against him in the next election.
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2002 : 18:49:20 [Permalink]
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I took a quick look at the page of Dr. Craig and skimmed some of his speaches.
From my short and not very in-depth anlysis it appears that he is saying that God is not allpowerful.
He solves the theodice problem "How can an omnipotent, omniscient and benevolnt creator create a world in wich evil exists?" by redefining God as not being Omnipotent. Elegant but contradicting the general definition of god gained from the scripture and accepted by his followers.
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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2002 : 19:03:06 [Permalink]
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I summarized the part wher Jesus is quoted from the bible. The amount of sin the people they are talking about commited has no influence on their eventual fate. A causal and quantified realionship between deed and punishment is an integral part of the concept of Justice. 'They are not getting what they desrve.'
To be honest, I only understood about half of that. Why doesn't it have influence on their fate and what do they deserve?
quote:
Later Doug explains that we are all sinners and thus all desrve punishment. We should be thankful for those of us who don't get punished quite as bad as they desrved instead of bemoaning the injustice going on.
I know where it says the top part of that but not the rest.
quote:
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But wait! Who established those conditions? Who made the rules? Who created Hell? Who created evil? Who made the rules that you go to hell, if you never heared of Jesus?
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Unless you follow Leibniz with the best of all worlds idea you have to agree that he could have organized the whole thing much better then it is.
If I'm understanding you correctly:
please e-mail me how you would have created this all if you were God and let me question it...lloydc443@aol.com or you can IM me at AIM Resurrected20
quote:
The conditions I mean are for example the conditions described in the analogy Tokyodreamer quotes in the begining of this topic.
Well, one thing I disagree with what she quoted is that hell isn't a burning with fire, but just banishment alone. Dr. Craig explains this in that link.
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If you belive the Bible than you are thanking the wrong guy. God was not the one who gave you a free will and the ability to tell good from evil. It was the other guy that told Eve about the apple. Apperantly God was rather angry about the whole incident and kicked them out of their home because of it.
I disagree. God did give me free will just as he gave adam and eve free will.
About the evil subject. I said in my last reply to you that evil is a result of human's choice....not God.
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Your next question is, who made the rules that you go to Hell?
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God made the rules and we should be thankful that he did not make them worse? God wants to be obeyed like governments want to be obeyed?
I gave you the link, becase stuff like that is asked by an atheist philosopher and answered very well by Dr. Craig. In the question and answer session, you can tell how.....
[quote]Comparing God with the law or the government does not makes much sense unless you can vote against him in the next election.
You can vote against God....the outcome isn't nice, according to my belief, but youc an vote against him.
Here's a quote from my friend at AIM:
Piercd4Redemptn: When a person dies, they leave finite time, thus the fact it was a finite crime holds no ground becuase they entered into infinity...
Piercd4Redemptn: the crime is paid nonetheless... there's no "time"
Piercd4Redemptn: thus no course of time needed to be determined.
Piercd4Redemptn: or else a lot of finite crimes= the magnitude of an infinite one, if they could even determine what an "infinite" crime is...
Edited by - Night Spawn on 04/25/2002 19:12:54
Edited by - Night Spawn on 04/25/2002 19:30:21 |
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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2002 : 19:05:27 [Permalink]
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Your welcome to go to one of his debates that he has or speaches and question him on that. But he has debated against some of the most recognized atheist philosophers of our time and I doubt they would miss something so huge as to say god isn't all-powerful
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2002 : 00:04:41 [Permalink]
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Wow Spawn, don't you ever read the bible?
About the evil subject. I said in my last reply to you that evil is a result of human's choice....not God.
God says of Himself in the book of Isaiah that He creates evil (Is. 45.7). I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I, THE LORD do all these things
Not man, god created evil. He admitted it.
…hell isn't a burning with fire, but just banishment alone. Dr. Craig explains this in that link.
"He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever" (Rev. 14.10-11). Note that the so-called Lamb who features so prominently in these divine spectator sports is Jesus himself. No fuzzy talk of eternal separation from him! On a quick count I found 20 or so passages in the gospel of Matthew alone in which Jesus threatens unbelievers with what he calls fiery hell, that is, with eternal punishment in an eternal fire, where "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
And as for "Free Will" where does the bible say anything about that coming from god?
Nowhere does god give man free will. It's Thou shalt not this and thou shalt not that.
God didn't give Adam and Eve free will, He forbid them to have it.
God gives rules period. Follow them or there's gonna be gnashing of teeth. That's like an armed robber saying "your money or your life" being free will.
Free Will IS the knowledge of good and evil! God said NO, but man took it anyway with the help of snake. God is so against you having free will that he cursed the entire human race over it.
When in church have you ever heard anyone say that you should think for yourself? It's always obey our rules, don't do what you want to do, do what Jesus wants. Don't commit what we say are sins.
God wanted you to be a "robot", as you put it, and man rebelled. That was the "fall from grace" --the freeing of man's will.
How can you worship a monster like that?
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel |
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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2002 : 00:54:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Wow Spawn, don't you ever read the bible?
yes....it is boring at times, though.
quote:
God says of Himself in the book of Isaiah that He creates evil (Is. 45.7). I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I, THE LORD do all these things
Not man, god created evil. He admitted it.
Isaiah 45:7
"I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things."
Verse 7 does not mean that God creates moral "evil," as some have claimed, based on the KJ Version and other early translations.
Delitzsh points out that th early "Christian" heretic Marcion, and the heretical Valentinians and other Gnostic sects, abused this text to teacht that the God of the OT was "a different being from the God of the New."
Addressing the problem of evil(uncluding calamity, no doubt), Delitzsch continues, "Undoubtedly, evil as an act is not the direct working of God but the spontaneous work of creature endowed with freedom."
In the present context the contrasts are between light and its opposite, darkness; between peace and opposite, calamity. What God permits, He is often said to create. Some think that light and darkness refer to two principles which the Persians practically revered as two Gods who were in perpetual conflict. (Others say that there is no evidence that Cyrus followed this religion.) As Cyrus swept forward in his campaigns, there wold be peace for Israel and calamity for Israel's foes, and God was the One who was watching over it.
(source: William Macdonald's Commentary)
quote:
"He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever" (Rev. 14.10-11).
My belief or opinion on this issue has nothing to do with the original subject...even though my link dealt with it,let's try to stay on subject here.
quote:
Note that the so-called Lamb who features so prominently in these divine spectator sports is Jesus himself. No fuzzy talk of eternal separation from him! On a quick count I found 20 or so passages in the gospel of Matthew alone in which Jesus threatens unbelievers with what he calls fiery hell, that is, with eternal punishment in an eternal fire, where "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
weeping and gnashing of teeth doesn't prove an actual burning fire in hell. As I said before, this has nothing to do with the original subject and i believe this was handled in my link. You're more than welcome to PM these scriptures to me one by one and I'll deal with them. Thanks.
About Jesus' PRESENCE being there:
Christ's presense is everywhere, so.....
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God didn't give Adam and Eve free will, He forbid them to have it.
God gives rules period. Follow them or there's gonna be gnashing of teeth.
If they didn't have the free will to choose, then how did they choose?
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That's like an armed robber saying "your money or your life" being free will.
how is this comparable with God?
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Free Will IS the knowledge of good and evil! God said NO, but man took it anyway with the help of snake. God is so against you having free will that he cursed the entire human race over it.
They had the free will to choose.....
quote:
When in church have you ever heard anyone say that you should think for yourself? It's always obey our rules, don't do what you want to do, do what Jesus wants. Don't commit what we say are sins.
God wanted you to be a "robot", as you put it, and man rebelled. That was the "fall from grace" --the freeing of man's will.
How can you worship a monster like that?
Yes, in church they tell me to worry about my own personal relationship with Christ, but also I have the FREE WILL to choose to obey the commandments set forth by Christ or not.
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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2002 : 00:56:00 [Permalink]
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You forgot to respond to this on my last post:
Here's a quote from my friend at AIM:
Piercd4Redemptn: When a person dies, they leave finite time, thus the fact it was a finite crime holds no ground becuase they entered into infinity...
Piercd4Redemptn: the crime is paid nonetheless... there's no "time"
Piercd4Redemptn: thus no course of time needed to be determined.
Piercd4Redemptn: or else a lot of finite crimes= the magnitude of an infinite one, if they could even determine what an "infinite" crime is...
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2002 : 03:00:52 [Permalink]
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I just scanned the 2 websites linked in this thread and found no suprises. Christianity is a confusing and often bloody business, isn't it? Anderi Chikatilo, as confused and bloody as they come, ain't even in the running.
A couple of years ago, I was called out on a snake removal (I do reptile rescue, removal and rehab)and met a very interesting gentleman. He is an ex-Baptist who went to the Jehova's Witness, then back to being a Baptist, double-dipped. The offending animal captured - it was a Black Rat Snake - we had coffee in the kitchen and I got the usual question of 'was I saved'. During the ensuing conversation, he told me that the JW don't believe in Hell, either. They refer to Gehenna, which was a burning garbage midden used as a metaphore for the soul being sort of tossed away. In other words, oblivion.
I found this interesting. What, I asked is so horrible about that. Well, he answered, you will no longer exist and be denied the light of God.
Ok.......
First-off, you've got to believe that there is something spirtual left floating around after death. This belief is held by the vast majority of the world's population because, I think, that is difficult for us to accept any kind of existance that might lack the unique, irriplacable 'Me'.
And once the existance of a soul is established, the rest follows naturally, whatever the faith. At one time, this was very simple, but now, with modern means of transportation and communication, one can join almost any of the world's churchs (except Landover Baptist where the unsaved are unwelcome). As a result, churchs of all faiths, ranging from the sublime to the insane, have popped up like toadstools after a summer rain.
I see that I ramble. Apologies. It's early in the morning and soon, I'm off on an all day drive to Hamburg, PA for a reptile show and an unofficial seminar. You can never learn too much.
To finish this wandering screed, The afore-mentioned gentleman and I still share the occasional coffee and conversation, and the snake, after a description fo the benefits of having a Rat Snake around the place, was released in his back yard.
Wishing luck,
f
"He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice."
- Albert Einstein
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Mr. Spock
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2002 : 05:39:56 [Permalink]
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I can't really add to much, other than to ask: Does god have free will? If so, and if he is omnipotent, the whole Christian story seems to amount to one of grand-scale cosmic child abuse. E.g., if god has free will, then he could have arranged things so that his son would not have to die for our redemption; likewise, our refusal to choose (or inability to, given the fact that each Christian sect has its own formula) redemption need not lead to eternal damnation. Which leads back to the original point: If god is omnipotent, he is apparantly unperturbed at the spectacle of seeing his children suffer; in fact, he has arranged things so that very few escape horrible torment. To turn things around and say that it is only by his graces that some of us escape this fate only undermines his supposed omnipotence, goodness or both.
BTW, can god make a rock so big that he can't move it?
A pagan friend of mine once made an apt reply to a fundy asking him "what if there IS a hell?" He replied "I'd rather be a Man in hell than a blissful slave in heaven."
Or as Asimov said when asked how he would respond to chastisement from god for not believing, "You should have provided more evidence."
"Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what is right." --Isaac Asimov |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2002 : 07:18:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
I can't really add to much, other than to ask: Does god have free will? If so, and if he is omnipotent, the whole Christian story seems to amount to one of grand-scale cosmic child abuse.
Exactly. And I thought the analogy I quoted was so simple to understand! I'm torn between a great sadness and a fascination for you, Night Spawn. I just can't grasp how you can deny the rational that if God is all good and all powerful, then any concept of eternal punishment for any amount of "sin" (which are arbitrary actions that God decided to call "sin"! Can't you see?!) is so grossly evil and unjustified as to not even make any sense!
Instead, you listen to apologists who try to use fancy linguistic tricks to fit a square peg into a round hole, and you buy it without one ounce of critical thought.
By the way, I'm a "he".
And also by the way, I made an A on my research paper. You can't imagine my surprise when I get it back and see what the teacher had written:
quote:
Just as I thought. Jesus was a figurehead.
 
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Truth above pride and ego; truth above all |
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Antie
Skeptic Friend
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2002 : 09:31:24 [Permalink]
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> BTW, can god make a rock so big that he can't move it?
The term "omnipotent" means "having unlimited power." In other words, there is no limit to that power. If there is any limit to a being's power, for any reason, then that being cannot be omnipotent.
If God cannot move such a rock, what business do we have to say that he's omnipotent?
If he cannot create such a rock in the first place, what business do we have to say that he's omnipotent?
If he can do only that which is logical, and not that which is illogical, what business do we have to say that he's omnipotent?
If he can do only that which is illogical, and not that which is logical, what business do we have to say that he's omnipotent?
If he cannot break his own rules, what business do we have to say that he's omnipotent?
Ian Andreas Miller. DIES GAUDII. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2002 : 09:46:00 [Permalink]
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Verse 7 does not mean that God creates moral "evil," as some have claimed,
Time to go to the dictionary Spawn. The word EVIL only applies to morals. Or are you saying that the bible is wrong,or that god doesn't understand English? God boasts that it was He who created evil and you don't believe him.
quote:
"He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone … (Rev. 14.10-11).
My belief or opinion on this issue has nothing to do with the original subject...even though my link dealt with it,let's try to stay on subject here.
This is the topic. Pay attention. The bible says that hell is fire and brimstone no some sissy separation from god.
weeping and gnashing of teeth doesn't prove an actual burning fire in hell.
Matthew 13:41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
13:42
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
13:48
Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
13:49
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
13:50
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
That's Jesus talking there. Do you know more about hell than Jesus does?
He isn't talking about the Jewish afterlife. The Jews didn't believe in one. He is talking about a version of the Mithran hell. Christianity isn't based on Judaism, which is why the Gnostics accurately said that the god in the OT and the one in the NT weren't the same god. You just try a Sunday Sabbath with the OT god and he'll have you killed.
If ( Adam and Eve) didn't have the free will to choose, then how did they choose?
They didn't choose. To have free will you must be mentally competent. You must be able to tell the difference between one thing and another. The fruit in the garden was the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. That's the knowledge of right and wrong. As proof that it is--as soon as Adam ate the fruit he knew he had done wrong but before he ate he had no idea. The gaining of the knowledge of good and evil is the gaining of free will. That's why god punished them and their descendents too. Because all humans from then on would have free will and what god wanted was unquestioning obedience.
how is (armed robber) comparable with God?
Criminal: "Give me all your money or I'll blow your brains out."
Gen.2:17 :"But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
No difference-do what I tell you to do or I'll kill you.
(But, of course, god was lying to Adam just like snake said he was. Because later we read "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died." )
They had the free will to choose.....
No, they didn't choose. They didn't have the ability to make a choice since they didn't know what was right and what was wrong.
Yes, in church they tell me to worry about my own personal relationship with Christ, but also I have the FREE WILL to choose to obey the commandments set forth by Christ or not.
With the free will given to you by the snake. The free will that god has cursed you with physical death for having.
Show the section of the bible where you think god gives people free will.
When a person dies, they leave finite time, thus the fact it was a finite crime holds no ground becuase they entered into infinity...the crime is paid nonetheless... there's no "time"
thus no course of time needed to be determined. or else a lot of finite crimes= the magnitude of an infinite one, if they could even determine what an "infinite" crime is...
You want me to respond to this? It sounds like this poor fellow was dropped on his head as a baby.
Unless you think that a soul pops into existence the moment a person dies and is not there when they are alive it makes no sense. You don't go into infinite time when you die, you are already in it while you are alive. What crime could possibly be infinite? This makes god out to be some kind of evil sultan gleefully doling out pain.
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel
Edited by - slater on 04/26/2002 09:51:10 |
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Night Spawn
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2002 : 12:52:02 [Permalink]
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First off, let me say that your guys questions are, of course, making sense. I'm not a closed minded Christian so I like it when there are questions that I don't understand. It helps me wander on that question(s) until I get an answer.
Thanks for your replies, so far.
quote:
Time to go to the dictionary Spawn. The word EVIL only applies to morals. Or are you saying that the bible is wrong,or that god doesn't understand English? God boasts that it was He who created evil and you don't believe him.
I just explained it...the dictionary was written by mortals, so....
Also, I went to dictionary.com and I didn't see a definition where it says "evil only applies to mortals"
quote:
That's Jesus talking there. Do you know more about hell than Jesus does?
As I said many times before....this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Try to stay on subject here.
Although, all of those scriptures and more are dealt with in JP Morelands writings and Dr. Craigs writings.
quote:
They didn't choose. To have free will you must be mentally competent. You must be able to tell the difference between one thing and another. The fruit in the garden was the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. That's the knowledge of right and wrong. As proof that it is--as soon as Adam ate the fruit he knew he had done wrong but before he ate he had no idea. The gaining of the knowledge of good and evil is the gaining of free will. That's why god punished them and their descendents too. Because all humans from then on would have free will and what god wanted was unquestioning obedience.
Once again, I understand what you're saying, but they still chose, so I don't see your point....
quote:
Gen.2:17 :"But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
No difference-do what I tell you to do or I'll kill you.
(But, of course, god was lying to Adam just like snake said he was. Because later we read "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died." )
God said he would die...he died. It was his choice...he knew the outcome, yet he chose it anyway.
Now how is it comparable to "give me your money and I'll blow your brains out". God just says "listen to me pay the price". He didn't hold them at gunpoint and force them to choose. Your comparison is understood, but totally different.
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No, they didn't choose. They didn't have the ability to make a choice since they didn't know what was right and what was wrong.
If they didn't choose, then how did they choose?
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With the free will given to you by the snake. The free will that god has cursed you with physical death for having.
God gave Adam and Eve the ability to make a choice...they made it. I have the ability to make choices also...It's just harder, because of the choice they made.
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Show the section of the bible where you think god gives people free will.
I agree with the quote above this one. Now, if you're meaning free will to make a choice, then yes.
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Unless you think that a soul pops into existence the moment a person dies and is not there when they are alive it makes no sense. You don't go into infinite time when you die, you are already in it while you are alive.
If that is true, then why do is there time?
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What crime could possibly be infinite? This makes god out to be some kind of evil sultan gleefully doling out pain.
Notice the "or" before that. Ask that question to yourself. The anser is how can you, a mortal, know what an infinite crime is and how do you know whether or not finite crimes can equal up to a infinite crime?
Piercd4Redemptn: When a person dies, they leave finite time, thus the fact it was a finite crime holds no ground becuase they entered into infinity...
Piercd4Redemptn: the crime is paid nonetheless... there's no "time"
Piercd4Redemptn: thus no course of time needed to be determined.
Piercd4Redemptn: or else a lot of finite crimes= the magnitude of an infinite one, if they could even determine what an "infinite" crime is...
Mr. Spock:
quote:
can god make a rock so big that he can't move it?
The simple answer is: Why would God want to?
quote:
If god is omnipotent, he is apparantly unperturbed at the spectacle of seeing his children suffer; in fact, he has arranged things so that very few escape horrible torment. To turn things around and say that it is only by his graces that some of us escape this fate only undermines his supposed omnipotence, goodness or both.
If I don't answer the above quote correctly, please tell me. Thanks
I believe that when God first thought about creating humans, he, of course, knew what they would do before they do it. But God chose not to just permanently erase the ones whom would suffer or make bad choices, because it would be against his being all-good and all-just.
I know that you're going to question me on how that is just. Just think about it this way:
I know plenty of Christians whom are suffering and I know for a fact that there are about 200 million suffering in other countries. Yet, they still understand why they suffer...if you'd like, you can go to persecution.com and write one of them. Ask them why God lets the |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2002 : 14:07:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
God said he would die...he died. It was his choice...he knew the outcome, yet he chose it anyway.
God actually says, "in the day that thou eatest therof thou shalt surely die." This means that Adam will die that day. He instead dies many years later.
I am going to compare the "free will" versus "choice" issue to the movie, the Matrix. Neo is given the choice between two pills, and is explained what will happen if he ingests either. Thus, he has made a choice. If there were no explanation, there would be no choice. If Neo picked the blue pill simply because it was blue, he had no knowledge of the outcome. Thus, there would have been no real choice. quote:
If that is true, then why do is there time?
I don't understand what you are saying here. Will you please rephrase this? It follows the "finite crime" versus "infinite punishment" discussion. quote:
And just take a hypothetical situation where someone comes to you and says, "You either kill your parents and your family in this house here, or I'm going to kill all of them plus everybody that lives on the block."
this is a bad analogy, since god is supposed to be omnipotent. If god has no constraints, "he" is perfectly capable of creating an outcome in which nobody dies, or even gets hurt. Why does "he" not do this?
-me. |
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