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Mr. Spock
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
 Posted - 07/25/2002 : 19:00:00
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As I was reading the new issue of Skeptical Inquirer, I came across an article by Russian astronomer Yuri Efremov, who expresses concern "that we are approaching the sunset of the second great experiment with rationalism (after the classical world). This has been the subject of grave concern for some time now, expressed by the scenerios imagined by many science fiction writers and the warnings of great thinkers for generations.
While skeptics are not in the business of historical prognostication, is the proverbial writing on the wall? The increasing disregard, and even disdain for science and rationality, coupled with the re-encroachment of fundamentalist religion and psuedoscience into government, coupled with the near-hysteria produced by shaky political and economic situations could easily tip the scales in that direction. How about it?
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2002 : 19:25:12 [Permalink]
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I disagree. There are plenty of people out there that recognize the value of science and have a pretty firm grasp on reality. More people than ever come right out and say that they aren't swallowing popular religions. Alternative methods are not going to produce much except for the ones pawning off their worthless crap. Real science does have results and that won't escape the notice of everyone. Business likes results. R & D will continue and that takes educated people. But I do think that the religious extremists are becoming even more extreme. Perhaps because it is they that feel their grip slipping. But then that's not the case with Islamic extremism. They do, at least from my western point of view, entered a sort of dark age that hopefully crested in Afghanistan.
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Mr. Spock
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2002 : 19:32:07 [Permalink]
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| I think that you are probably right, though defenders of rationality should proceed as though the worst could always happen. The post was more of an "I'm curious to see what you guys think" sort of statement rather than the assertion of a position. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2002 : 20:39:51 [Permalink]
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The "disdain for science and rationalism" is a popular facade, if you ask me. It's just a superficial trend. When people start having heart valves repair themselves and terrorists change their minds simply because of prayers, then we'll talk about what people are ready to give up.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2002 : 23:03:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
The "disdain for science and rationalism" is a popular facade, if you ask me. It's just a superficial trend
Facade? Facade! Have you got your head in the sand, man?
Perhaps it's not as bad as it seems and it's only the 'silent majority' minority making noise, and maybe there are pleanty of people as @ says who are still rational BUT we can't sit back and hope the masses won't win out over logic. Look at the hub bub about the pledge, look at ALL those morons who think it's OK to have god in it. They think they are right. Are you willing to bet rationality will win? I've been saying it for a while now, I could see a revert to the Dark Ages coming. I think we are about to enter into it if we haven't already.
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
*Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
Homer Jaye S. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2002 : 07:28:38 [Permalink]
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People aren't going to give up their cell phones, DVDs, SUVs, AIDS treatments, etc., all things that are the very antithesis of prayer. People will pretend like spirituality and piety are of vast fundamental importance, all the while funding the chemistry and theoretical physics labs that make it all possible. People will publicly disapprove of teaching evolution but they will let the biology labs create all the mutants and mosaics they want as long as we get new brain cells or heart valves or cancer treatments. I'm telling you, it's just a show. People are scared of being attacked right now, but they know where the power to prevent attacks really lies.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2002 : 09:13:00 [Permalink]
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Maybe, but those same people will tell you that they are all gifts from God.
quote:
People aren't going to give up their cell phones, DVDs, SUVs, AIDS treatments, etc., all things that are the very antithesis of prayer.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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seb
New Member
France
40 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2002 : 10:12:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
But then that's not the case with Islamic extremism. They do, at least from my western point of view, entered a sort of dark age that hopefully crested in Afghanistan.
When christian started crusade against islam western poeple were the barbarians and they were the educated guys. Were they thinking the same? In the long run things change.
Seb |
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DVF
Skeptic Friend
USA
96 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2002 : 10:40:15 [Permalink]
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I don't know about a new dark ages, but we may well be on the cusp of the third american christian revival.
"Know what, if you were in a building, and it was on fire, I'd rescue you."
- My Son 3/5/2002 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2002 : 13:16:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
I don't know about a new dark ages, but we may well be on the cusp of the third american christian revival.
Excuse me! But isn't that the same thing?
And to be more serious, if enough people aren't there to point out the folly of religion, you know how easy it is for many to get 'caught up' in those cults. Should I site the 60's as an example, and what came out of that? Scientology, Hare Krishna, Jim Jones, etc.
Let's not wait for disasters, which btw are already happening. Like doctors being killed because of those 'christians'. They are trying to infiltrate just at the cults did then. Make you think nothing is wrong and then BAM, they got you. That is to say, they are in city councils, on committies, etc., changing laws. It's a war out there. Trust me! Just the idea that the government has to even consider stem cell research, or if they should 'allow' it, what do you think is going on? The Crusades are on, it is the Dark Ages. I'm ready to fight. My armour is my Darwin fish button.
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
*Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
Homer Jaye S. |
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DVF
Skeptic Friend
USA
96 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2002 : 14:47:21 [Permalink]
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I'm with you snake. It's clear to me that freethinkers need to become a more prominent faction of the american public.
By the way, I own the URL nomoregods.com but have not yet gotten around to doing anything with it. Suggestions for content are welcome.
"Know what, if you were in a building, and it was on fire, I'd rescue you."
- My Son 3/5/2002 |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2002 : 15:15:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Suggestions for content are welcome.
Well, obviously it should include a link to this most fabulous page!
-me. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2002 : 15:27:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
The Crusades are on, it is the Dark Ages. I'm ready to fight. My armour is my Darwin fish button.
Here's what the AIG people think of that, see: http://www.answersingenesis.org/AfterEden/AE_Pages/ae7-19-2002.asp
Let's face it, the fundies already think (and act) as if they're in a war. What do you think will happen if we ignore this and just sit back and do nothing?
(this is why, by the way, that most of my posts have a christian theme-- I see what they're like, and how active they are, and I'm trying my damndest to not let them drag us back into a "revival" or "dark age" (same thing)!
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2002 : 21:59:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm with you snake. It's clear to me that freethinkers need to become a more prominent faction of the american public.
By the way, I own the URL nomoregods.com but have not yet gotten around to doing anything with it. Suggestions for content are welcome.
Thank you DVF and Ignored, nice to know I'm not the only one who see this and is in my own way am trying to react to what they are doing.
BTW, I too have had a web name but have still not made a page for it either. We've got to get off our butts, huh?
Don't know if @ wants me to say anything but maybe you could talk to him about making a page. I'd love to hire him but can't afford to now. He is good though. (guess he can edit this out if he doesn't want me to say that )
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
*Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
Homer Jaye S. |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2002 : 06:31:31 [Permalink]
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A "New Dark Age," dunno, but there is certainly a frightening trend becoming increasingly clear. While me agrees with what @tomic has to say, can't take comfort in it, either. The weight of numbers do come into play, here. What is the population of ol' mother earth, now, 4.5, 5 billion? What estimate would you place the percentage of educated "rational" beings, to be, now, and do you think its increasing or decreasing? Of this, am convinced, should humanity slip into another dark age, don't think we will ever emerge this time around. We have just consumed too much of the world's natural resources, and the population density is too great to allow an enlightened enclave to estabish itself and thrive, unmolested. Although me remains an agnostic, am continuely surprised at the hostility me own little gold Darwin fish pin attracts. Humanity has a great way to go before actually entering a true dark age, but think the observation, that, that is the direction we seem to be taking, is valid.
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2002 : 12:13:32 [Permalink]
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Are we entering a new dark age? Consider this. Alternative medical practices that have not been shown to be effective, like Acupuncture and Touch Therapy, may be covered by your health insurance.
With a rise in medical costs, more and more people are turning to alternative medicines. Even without the woo woo factor, almost every person I know who is not actively skeptical, and that includes people with adequate health coverage, are buying, unquestioningly, Homeopathics and a host of unproved food supplements. The alternative medicine industry is doing a booming business these days.
TV shows like "crossing over" are getting such good ratings that, in this particular case, the show has jumped from cable to network TV. It's on every weekday. That show is just the tip of the iceberg with regard to shows that take an unquestioning look at supernatural claims. If at all, Skeptics are on these shows for a few seconds and made to appear like curmudgeons. Then producers claim that they have presented a balanced show.
Extraordinary claims seem to be coming at us from all sides at all times. Consumer products like Ionizing air cleaners, requiring no filter, can be found at any Sharper Image store. Miracle Thaw trays can still be had. Dr. Sholl has a line of magnetic shoe inserts. The Discovery Store sells magnetic inserts.
Miss Cleo would still be hawking taro card readings if the company she worked for wasn't so dishonest in their billing practices. She was not brought down by lying about psychic readings. The Enforma Diet Products are being sold at chain pharmacies. I know. I saw them there.
Intelligent Design is gaining support among some of those who reject the new earth model of creationism. And I'm not talking about fundamentalist either. "Darwin on Trial" and "Darwin's Black Box" were huge sellers.
Scientific literacy among college graduates is appallingly low. A majority of Americans believe that ghosts exist.
When officials at NASA are shoving candles in their ears, as Tokodreamer mentioned in another thread, there is reason for concern.
And then there is religion.
We may never slid back to a true dark age. But, I'm afraid that we may be sliding into a dim age...
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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