|
|
|
Satan
New Member
USA
27 Posts |
 Posted - 07/28/2002 : 14:09:23 [Permalink]
|
On the face of it, it sounds like most of the complaints of the skeptics here on this board are hardly new developments, but are superstitions that have been around. When, for example, has belief in ghosts been confined to a small minority? The average person has always been somewhat superstitious and backward at least in certain areas of his/her life (e.g., religion, or anything about which he/she knows very little).
On the other side, many arguments the naysayers are making are equally myopic. For us to enter a "new Dark Age," so to speak, we need not shun technology in its entirety, as has been suggested.
What does it mean to say we are entering "a new Dark Age"? To me it means the integration of church and state, and state coercion and brainwashing utilizing the superstitions of the common people. For skeptics, this will inevitably result in suppression, and eventually persecution. "Witch hunts" will be launched against various minority groups, and at risk in today's society are probably homosexuals, Wiccans, Satanists, atheists, perhaps even scientists who refuse to give their assent to such ideas as apocalypticism or creationism.
The very fact that these people are not, on a large scale, being eliminated, and the fact that we still have, to a great extent, the ability to speak freely without fear of suppression or persecution, indicates that we are not yet in the midst of a 21st century "Dark Age." But is this in our near future? Quite possibly.
The sad fact is, if indeed we are heading toward this Dark Age, there is not a lot we can do about it. The more we try to unite and make a difference, the easier it will be for politicians and preachers to paint us as a "liberal coalition" out to shred the fabric of Western civilization. The more we give ourselves to alarmist activism, the more of a threat we seem to the ignorant or feeble-minded (if indeed they are wrong and we are right), thus the more counter-productive our actions will become. In the process, we are also becoming closer to what we are trying to destroy, paranoid fanatics trying to stop a thoroughly corrupt system from destroying us.
By resisting, we may in fact contribute to the decline of rationalism and skepticism. Let us beware of the warnings that we are slipping into a new "Dark Age." If they are true, we must ponder carefully what to do about it, if anything. If they are false, any action we take will make us look like idiots and will deter others from being skeptical or rational.
Satan,
a.k.a. the Talking Snake Whom Atheists, Witches, Muslims, and Puerto Ricans Worship (If You Ask Anyone In This State)
Edited by - Satan on 07/28/2002 14:11:02 |
 |
|
|
Mr. Spock
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2002 : 18:42:27 [Permalink]
|
Hail Satan!
I was expecting that a good deal of ranting would proceed before someone brought up the idea of defining exactly what we mean when we say "the new Dark Ages."  Thanks for the clarifications.
Again, I'm not certain myself; it seems as though one cannot tell the direction in which history is going until we are already there. I wish there was some sort of more scientific way of knowing. I guess that whichever way we look at it, we tend to suffer some confirmation bias.
For instance, a poplular local talk show featured the topic of atheism, which interviewed the SC and NC state directors. I spent some time with the NC director, who was in from Raliegh, getting him ready for some of the silly calls he could expect from certain fundamentalist wing nuts that call in regularly. To our surprise, no such calls made it to air. Perhaps the freethinkers in the area were so ecstatic that they flooded the phones, but it would seem to be a good indication that in the heart of the Bible Belt (and home town of Billy Graham) that all of the callers were at least somewhat sympathetic.
Perhaps it seems worse than it is because the fundamentalist "forces of evil" (as FZ was fond of calling them) are a well-funded and voiciferous minority (remember the 80,s, when we said that the moral majority was neither?).
Regardless, even if the decline of a freethinking tolerant society is ineluctable, we should not let it happen without putting up a fight (as long as we don't end up shooting ourselves in the foot--not all freethinkers are actually good for their "cause").
"The amount of noise which anyone can bear stands in inverse proportion to his mental capacity." --Schopenhauer |
|
|
|
Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2002 : 18:53:58 [Permalink]
|
Whatever the definition of Dark Age, I don't think we're in imminent danger of entering one. Maybe I'm totally naive, but I think we've made significant progress in human knowledge and social organization over the past, say, two centuries. Sure, maybe we backslide a bit now and then (remember the McCarthy era? Okay, neither do I, but you get my point). But with the leveling effect of mass media and computer communications, it would be extremely difficult now for the forces of reaction to take hold generally.
Of course, I'd quibble a bit with the title of this thread... wouldn't it be a "Sunset of a new Dark Ages"? 
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
|
|
|
Satan
New Member
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2002 : 20:24:06 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Regardless, even if the decline of a freethinking tolerant society is ineluctable, we should not let it happen without putting up a fight (as long as we don't end up shooting ourselves in the foot--not all freethinkers are actually good for their "cause").
I agree with both statements. Abraham Lincoln once said* that "the probability that we may fail in the struggle ought not to deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just." On the other hand, as I wrote in my previous post, we must be careful about what action we are going to take. We cannot be rendered impotent by the (a)moral (min/)majority, but we cannot afford blunders that only cost us valuable public respect and audience.
quote:
But with the leveling effect of mass media and computer communications, it would be extremely difficult now for the forces of reaction to take hold generally.
It is true that another feature of the Dark Ages was that people did not travel, trade, or communicate with other cultures, or even towns. And that is one thing that will probably never happen again, unless the infrastructure and internet are destroyed by some catastrophe, which is hardly the result of a predictable societal trend. This fact gives me a good reason to say that we are not, in fact, entering a new "Dark Age."
But the label you put on an era is irrelevant. Besides, it would be rejected by an indignant populace if it were proposed. "What is history but a fable agreed upon?" (Was that Napoleon?)
The danger of persecution/repression of minorities and freethinkers among them, however, cannot be underestimated due to this quibble over labels. The fact is, there is a danger that we may face increasing levels of both. Then again, we may just be overestimating the vociferous "Religious Right." Sure, schools will be told to teach creationist bullshit instead of evolutionary theory, kids will have to mutter "under God" when addressing the flag (a ridiculous idea anyway, if you ask me), and politicians will routinely blame "secular humanists" for the nation's problems. Should we fight this madness? Of course. Can we overdo it? Of course. Are the stakes high? Well, you do the math.
* or at least, was once said to have once said !
Satan,
a.k.a. the Talking Snake Whom Atheists, Witches, Muslims, and Puerto Ricans Worship (If You Ask Anyone In This State)
Edited by - Satan on 07/28/2002 20:25:29 |
|
|
|
Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2002 : 23:48:52 [Permalink]
|
quote:
On the face of it, it sounds like most of the complaints of the skeptics here on this board are hardly new developments, but are superstitions that have been around. When, for example, has belief in ghosts been confined to a small minority? The average person has always been somewhat superstitious and backward at least in certain areas of his/her life (e.g., religion, or anything about which he/she knows very little).
On the other side, many arguments the naysayers are making are equally myopic. For us to enter a "new Dark Age," so to speak, we need not shun technology in its entirety, as has been suggested.
What does it mean to say we are entering "a new Dark Age"? To me it means the integration of church and state, and state coercion and brainwashing utilizing the superstitions of the common people.
I don't know about anyone else but I'm basing my opinions on what I'm seeing now(last few years) and comparing it to the many years past(mostly after the 'Blacklist' years in the USA but taking all of the past into consideration as well).
People were sheep back then, they broke away for a little while (next 20 years) but I see followers again, people afraid to 'speak out'.
----------------
*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
*Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
Homer Jaye S. |
|
|
|
Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2002 : 23:53:41 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Sure, maybe we backslide a bit now and then (remember the McCarthy era?
How funny.  I just mentioned that in my last post without seeing yours 1st.
I do think we need to be concerned about things like that happening again. Internet or not.
----------------
*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
*Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
Homer Jaye S. |
|
|
|
Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2002 : 07:11:18 [Permalink]
|
I'm not going to quibble over labels, either. But I don't think that what is happening now is a danger sign of entering a new Dark Age. I believe what we're seeing is the struggle to emerge from the last one. Examine some of the Religious Right's agenda.
* Take back America for Christ.
Well, if the RR hadn't thought that they had lost control in the first place, they wouldn't be trying to "take it back".
* Railing against the ACLU
The ACLU must be doing something right or the RR wouldn't be blasting away at them.
* Under God
When the words were inserted into the Pledge back in the 50's, no one said squat against it. Of course, Hoover was running the FBI and would tap your phone in a heart beat, and IRS audits were standard "dirty tricks" tactics. Besides, "Ike" was such a lovable president. 
* Prayer in school
Again, a no brainer. Morning prayer used to be a given, no questions asked.
* Ashcroft
He is probably doing more to spook the RR than anything the liberals can do. He's a true Christian Conservative who is going further and further toward squashing individual liberties. He' got EVERYONE nervous. So, I say, "Go for it John. Dig yourself a really DEEP hole."
* Returning power to the church
That's all well and good, but WHICH church? One of the truly entertaining features of the evangelical movement is how much they hate other mainline and / or liberal Christians. They are their own worst enemy.
I'm not saying to roll over and play dead. Quite the contrary. But it should be noted that the RR is using much more sophisticated techniques. They're actually working within the system to change the system. Imagine that! 
So meet them in the courts and in the halls of Congress and at the local school board meetings. That is where the battles should be fought.
(:raig
|
|
|
|
Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2002 : 11:09:39 [Permalink]
|
quote:
* Take back America for Christ.
Well, if the RR hadn't thought that they had lost control in the first place, they wouldn't be trying to "take it back".
That is something to think about BUT...it's just a slogan, they had to come up with something. What's actually happening and what each perceives and how they have to get their side moving could be different view points.
quote:
* Railing against the ACLU
The ACLU must be doing something right or the RR wouldn't be blasting away at them.
LOL. Everybody hates the ACLU. Heck, I was a member at one time and I don't like a lot of what they do.
quote:
* Prayer in school
Again, a no brainer. Morning prayer used to be a given, no questions asked.
HUH! Where did you go to school? Maybe in the South they did that, I don't know. But when I was going to school here in California, and my kids were going in the 70's and 80'- 90's, I never heard of any 'morning prayer'. No way!
quote:
* Returning power to the church
That's all well and good, but WHICH church? One of the truly entertaining features of the evangelical movement is how much they hate other mainline and / or liberal Christians.
They are their own worst enemy.
We can only pray....ah...hope!
quote:
I'm not saying to roll over and play dead. Quite the contrary. But it should be noted that the RR is using much more sophisticated techniques. They're actually working within the system to change the system. Imagine that!
So meet them in the courts and in the halls of Congress and at the local school board meetings. That is where the battles should be fought.
YES! That's what I'm saying too.
BTW, I went to a rally Saturday a local community event, for the Valley to secede from Los Angeles. It's been a while since I've said the pledge, anywhere, so this was unexpected since it was out doors in a park and very informal but before the speakers started we were asked to say the pledge. I decided to go along and when the part about under god came up, in a loud voice I said There IS NO god. But DAMN, I don't think anyone noticed. Next time...louder!
----------------
*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
*Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
Homer Jaye S.
Edited by - snake on 07/29/2002 11:19:51 |
|
|
|
Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2002 : 11:39:40 [Permalink]
|
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Prayer in school
Again, a no brainer. Morning prayer used to be a given, no questions asked.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HUH! Where did you go to school? Maybe in the South they did that, I don't know. But when I was going to school here in California, and my kids were going in the 70's and 80'- 90's, I never heard of any 'morning prayer'. No way!
Yes, I should have clarified. I'm referring to Deep South school students my daughter ran into when she was part of 700 cheerleaders at the Sugar Bowl in New Orleans. She had a real awakening to the "other" world when rubbing elbows with Southern girls in the hotel where we stayed. Christianity and public schools were deeply intertwined and the complaints from these girls was how Christ was being ripped out of the schools.
I, myself attended a suburban school of Cleveland. It was a 60% Christian / 40% Jewish mix. The school administration went to great lengths to keep things on a secular level.
(:raig |
|
|
|
Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2002 : 19:27:38 [Permalink]
|
The dark ages was the church refusing to let any thing other then their doctrin be followed or observed. People were not even allowed to own a Bible unless they were part of the clergy. I may be missing this point completely but if anything we are still leaving these dark ages behind.
Continued science discoveries comes from the imagination. A Sci-fi story gets written, we like the gadget someone made up and we invent it. H G Wells and other early writers opened up our imaginations that people like Roddenberry continued. If many people still need religion to explain the meaning of life to them and are clinging to the dark ages attitude that religion is the only answer to the meaning of the universe those of us who find our understanding in science is growing as we learn.
We will never see the day when religion is not needed as a crutch for the human mind but the more science we have the more our imagination dreams up. We are beginning to see the light finally.
Death: The High Cost of Living
It is easier to get forgiveness then to get permission! |
|
|
|
Satan
New Member
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2002 : 22:15:59 [Permalink]
|
quote:
We will never see the day when religion is not needed as a crutch for the human mind but the more science we have the more our imagination dreams up. We are beginning to see the light finally.
Amen!
Satan,
a.k.a. the Talking Snake Whom Atheists, Witches, Muslims, and Puerto Ricans Worship (If You Ask Anyone In This State) |
|
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2002 : 22:53:56 [Permalink]
|
quote:
I, myself attended a suburban school of Cleveland. It was a 60% Christian / 40% Jewish mix. The school administration went to great lengths to keep things on a secular level. (:raig
Lucky you. I went to school in Manhattan. The class was 80% Catholic and 20% Jewish.
Every morning and every assembly we all said a Protestant prayer.
-------
My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
|
|
|
Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2002 : 02:00:37 [Permalink]
|
When I read that particular article in SE, I got the impression that Mr. Efremov was speaking from more a sense of frustration resulting from the hysteria of a newly open Russia. New found freedoms have led to expressing all sorts of new interests. Also, I noticed that many of the popular pseudoscientific facinations in Russia are about twenty years behind ours. Popular pseudoscience is more a reflection of the times, and the culture.
I personally find the fear of a New Dark Age to be a little reactionary. I think that technology and science have gone beyond the point of allowing such a condition to arise. There is simply too much information out there to be had by anyone who wants.
In America, we fear the religious right may get too much power, but that is only because the vast majority of Americans believe in this movement only as far as it suits that sense of allegiance to Christianity that they were indoctrinated with. Let the religious right begin to assume power. When they begin to propose legislation that forbids the use of alcohol, or requires attendance at a right leaning Christian Protestant church, or makes adultery a crime that is enforced, or limits the rights of women, or people of other faiths, then you can expect a backlash at the polls. Most Americans are willing to show their biblical beliefs in slogans and self-identification, but not in real actions,if those actions affect their comfortable lives. We love our material world too much to give it up. Score one for hedonism!
Plus, we now have world wide communications, travel, cultural exchange and a world wide financial market. Keep these factors strong, and no one group can plunge us into the dark abyss of fundamentalist, or crackpot darkness.
"Many of those people involved with Adolph Hitler were Satanists, many of them were homosexuals--the two things seem to go together."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 1/21/93 |
|
|
|
Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2002 : 02:28:47 [Permalink]
|
By the way, I went to school in the deep south, and experienced the forced desegregation, and the end of faculty led prayer in school, (in most districts).
I was punished for refusing to even remain silent during homeroom prayer. I got in a couple of fights for not praying, and then got whipped and grounded at home for the same thing. I fought for my non-white friends, and stood up to the institution.
You know, in the end, no one saw me, or my friends as idealistic young people. All they saw in me was a rebellious teenager, and in my friends they saw a bunch of weirdos, hoods, queers and troublemakers. Maybe they were right. Nevertheless, because of us, those that refused to march to the same drummer, things have changed quite a bit since then, and they will continue to change.
Plus, I am quite certain that most of the people in this forum are like my school friends--Misunderstood, but all quietly doing their part. As long as all of you are still around, there can be no New Dark Ages.
"Many of those people involved with Adolph Hitler were Satanists, many of them were homosexuals--the two things seem to go together."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 1/21/93 |
|
|
|
Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2002 : 15:39:02 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Plus, I am quite certain that most of the people in this forum are like my school friends--Misunderstood, but all quietly doing their part. As long as all of you are still around, there can be no New Dark Ages.
What a beautiful statement Tim. Thank you.
I quit high school because I didn't 'fit in' and was intimidated by a teacher. My fight will never stop. Just the other day I was thinking of revising my will and thought about what group I could donate some money to. Don't really like AA but would like to find some other places that will continue the fight too.
----------------
*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
*Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
Homer Jaye S. |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
