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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
 Posted - 12/04/2002 : 07:16:53 [Permalink]
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LoE states: quote:
You are claiming the NT "eyewitness accounts" are PROOF of the existance of Jesus X. Not only are you saying they are PROOF, but that those accounts alone are all anyone should need!
To LordofEntropy,I can see by the rest of your post that you have a few issues with the "Church" which perhaps are clouding your judgement on what I said in my post.Please understand I too have many of the same issues.However,as Slater said a while back truth can't be judged by counting %'s.What I mean is if you counted the amount of people murdered by atheistic communist in the last century alone it would surpass the amount alleged to be killed by the church of all time.So would wenow have to judge atheism wrong because of the actions of some atheist? I would say no.Perhaps you need to open another thread on theodicity or some other such subject but all I am trying to show is that the "eyewitness" accounts in the NT are sufficient to prove that Jesus existed period. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 07:36:58 [Permalink]
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LoE responds: Posted - 12/03/2002 : 00:35:12
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quote:
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Originally posted by darwin alogos
Not that you need a source "other than [eyewitness accounts in]the NT
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Wow! So eyewitness accounts == fact!
All this time I thought UFOs, Loch Ness, posthumous Elvis, and Sasquatch didn't exist =(
Must also be another Washington D.C. sniper about too, considering all the eyewitnesses that saw white vans leaving the crime scenes. Either that or the van shapeshifts into a blue Malibu.
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Entropy just isn't what it used to be.
Your point misses the mark.In all the exampels you used there is a cloud of secrecy.However,with the NT evidence for Jesus its out in the open for public scrutiny (Acts 26:26)"For the king,before whom I also speak freely,knows these things;for I am convinced that none of these things escaped his attention ,sincethis thing was not done in a corner" |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 07:51:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
... but all I am trying to show is that the "eyewitness" accounts in the NT are sufficient to prove that Jesus existed period.
That is not at all true. You are foolishly insisting that repeated apologist transcriptions and interpolations of carefully vetted accounts that are (a) rendered by unashamedly biased proselytizers, and (b) constitute hearsay at best and fabrications at worst, are sufficient to prove something. It's a joke.  |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 08:29:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
What I mean is if you counted the amount of people murdered by atheistic communist in the last century alone it would surpass the amount alleged to be killed by the church of all time.
Surely you didn't think this would go unchallenged? Put up or shut up time, bro. Let's see the numbers. Understand, we're talking 100 years vs. 2000 years. This should be interesting, to say the least.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 11:24:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by PhDreamer
Let's see the numbers.
Perhaps we might start with Wars and Persecution. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 11:30:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
Perhaps we might start with Wars and Persecution.
I counted 32 million from that page. I think that safely exceeds anything from the 20th century that could conceivably be attributed to atheists. |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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Avenel
Skeptic Friend
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 13:28:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by PhDreamer
quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
Perhaps we might start with Wars and Persecution.
I counted 32 million from that page. I think that safely exceeds anything from the 20th century that could conceivably be attributed to atheists.
Not really. That page includes casualty rates for the Crusades for both sides. If you do that, then to be fair, you must attribute to Atheists all the casualties on the Western Front of WWII, the Chinese Civil War, the Vietnam War, the Korean War, all the victims of the Kmer Rouge, and don't forget the 20 million Russians killed by Stalin.
Now, to be fair, I don't think any of those, except for the last 2, can totally be pinned on Atheists. I'm just objecting in principle to the methodology. In fact, I don't believe in the concept of collective guilt, so I don't believe it's right to hold all Atheists to blame for those last two. I only hold those that ordered and carried out the atrocities accountable. |
"How many angels can swim on the head of a beer?" - Roger Ramjet |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 16:27:41 [Permalink]
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Then to be completely fair you have to blame those deaths on the ideology of Communism not Atheism. If you insist on combining political and religious ideology then you'll have to include every war Christian nations fought in. That is more than a few.
Atheism is not a belief system, there is really nothing there. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 16:34:40 [Permalink]
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Slater is right. Those were not wars pitting atheism vs Christianity or other religions. They were to conquer nations to impose a political economic system. There is a big difference here. You can't compare this to witch hunts or the crusades. Adding WWII front line deaths is especially ridiculous considering that Russia was attacked and did not start that war. I don't include the deaths caused by Americans in WWII as being Christian caused nor do I call the deaths called by the Germans Christian killings. WWII was not a religious war although religion may have been used to rally people. I'm not even sure you could include the holocaust because the jews weren't killed, as I understand it, because of their religion but because the Germans considered them to be an inferior people culturally and genetically. The crusades, on the other hand, were all about eliminating a competing religion.
@tomic
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Avenel
Skeptic Friend
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 16:37:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
Then to be completely fair you have to blame those deaths on the ideology of Communism not Atheism. If you insist on combining political and religious ideology then you'll have to include every war Christian nations fought in. That is more than a few.
Atheism is not a belief system, there is really nothing there.
Since the original quote did, in fact, specify atheistic communists, I think I'm perfectly justified in the assignment. I thought I made it clear that I do not concider this arguement to make any sense.
Atheism is broader than you know. It can be a passive lack of belief, but it also can be an active disbelief. It isn't always a belief system, but it can be. |
"How many angels can swim on the head of a beer?" - Roger Ramjet |
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Avenel
Skeptic Friend
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 16:52:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomicThe crusades, on the other hand, were all about eliminating a competing religion.
@tomic
Nonsense. The Crusades were entirely about capturing Jerusalem. The Dar al'Islam stretched from Morrocco to Indonesia. I am unaware of any Pope expecting the complete conquest of Islamic territories. The Reconquista of Iberia did call for the elimination of Islam from the penninsula, but is not usually counted as a Crusade. |
"How many angels can swim on the head of a beer?" - Roger Ramjet |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 17:58:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Atheism is broader than you know. It can be a passive lack of belief, but it also can be an active disbelief. It isn't always a belief system, but it can be.
I would think that a passive lack of belief would better describe an agnostic. I activly disbslieve, but I'm not the atheist's version of a missionary, if there is such a thing.
The point is, I think, that very few (any?) atheists have started wars, although many have fought in them. Also, I've read that we're vastly under-represented in the prisons, percentage-wise. Interesting, no?
Atheistism a belief system? Hardly. No ceremomies, no worship. Just a lack of belief in faith.
Welcome to the Septic Fiends!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Avenel
Skeptic Friend
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 18:31:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
The point is, I think, that very few (any?) atheists have started wars, although many have fought in them.
True, but hardly fair. Pretty much everyone up to the 18th century were Theists of some stripe or other ( I know that some varieties of Buhddism are Agnostic, and some of the ancient Greek philosophers may have been Agnostic or Atheist, and some pre-Christian Norse espoused a disbelief in the usually accepted pantheon). Outside of the Communist world, few Atheists have been in the position to have the option to start a war. I'd expect Atheist politicians to be as falible in the long run as Theist politicians. Sturgeon's Law applies to everything and everyone. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 18:35:16 [Permalink]
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| Well Avenel if you claim atheistic communists then I see you; and up you with Christian Fascism |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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