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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 12/04/2002 : 18:44:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'd expect Atheist politicians to be as falible in the long run as Theist politicians. Sturgeon's Law applies to everything and everyone.
Indeed. But an atheist politition would have at least one, less influence, for better or worse, currently worse, pulling at him.
f |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 18:52:53 [Permalink]
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| And this has what to do with "historic Jesus" exactly? |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 19:04:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
True, but hardly fair. Pretty much everyone up to the 18th century were Theists of some stripe or other ( I know that some varieties of Buhddism are Agnostic, and some of the ancient Greek philosophers may have been Agnostic or Atheist, and some pre-Christian Norse espoused a disbelief in the usually accepted pantheon). Outside of the Communist world, few Atheists have been in the position to have the option to start a war. I'd expect Atheist politicians to be as falible in the long run as Theist politicians. Sturgeon's Law applies to everything and everyone.
I don't get this at all unless it's grabbing at straws which is my guess. I know of no wars started by atheists or that were about atheism. I think that while it's obvious that communist doctrine insists on atheism it hardly insists on starting wars over it or killing. Vietnam had nothng to do with atheism but everything to do with ending colonialism and reuniting a divided country. Korea...gosh same thing. They may have wanted to be communists but there was no invasion and war because there was a need to convert everyone to atheism. Your point about atheist politicians is utterly invalid as I pointed out about communists. If some ruler of a country happens to be an atheist and starts a war over a territorial dispute this is not the same as the wars between protestants and catholics that ravaged Europe.
And atheism is not and never was a belief system. You can insist it is until you are blue in the face but your bias does not make atheists believe anything. Oh, you are right about there not being many atheists until recently. Christians were quite efficient in their ways of sending them to early graves.
@tomic
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Avenel
Skeptic Friend
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 19:04:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
Well Avenel if you claim atheistic communists then I see you; and up you with Christian Fascism
What I was trying for, Slater, was a reducto ad absurdum argument. I find the whole concept of corporate guilt to be rediculous, whatever group we are speaking of. I disapprove of the wholesale demonization of large groups, whether they be Theist, or Atheist, Communist or Capitalist, or any other divisory scheme you wnat to choose.
My point was that it is as rediculous to blame current Christians for the Crusades as it is to blame current Communists for Stalin's purges (except for the tiny minority that took part in them, if any survive). |
"How many angels can swim on the head of a beer?" - Roger Ramjet |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 19:08:09 [Permalink]
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You find it hard to blame the "Red Cross Knights" for the crusades? I think there is every reason to bring up the murderous history of the religious considering that they have been consistent up till ohhhhhhh this year. Bush himself called for a crusade until his trainers got a muzzle on him. It just sort of "slipped out" I guess.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Avenel
Skeptic Friend
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 19:24:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
And atheism is not and never was a belief system. You can insist it is until you are blue in the face but your bias does not make atheists believe anything. Oh, you are right about there not being many atheists until recently. Christians were quite efficient in their ways of sending them to early graves.
@tomic
I'm using the definitions from the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance at: http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist.htm. They clearly distinguish between not believing in Diety, and believing in no Diety. While neither form of Atheism is intrisically a complete belief system, the active form can be an integral part of a belief system, as it is in Marxism.
I'd love to see your cites for pre-Enlightenment Athiests being killed by Christians. If only Christians did so, there should be demonstratably more Atheists in areas under primarily Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or Polytheist control.
You have jumped to the conclusion that I have a pro-Christian bias. I do not. My bias is anti-bigotry, whoever that bigotry is aimed toward. |
"How many angels can swim on the head of a beer?" - Roger Ramjet |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 19:32:01 [Permalink]
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My bias is anti-bigotry
Fooled me. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Avenel
Skeptic Friend
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 19:51:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
You find it hard to blame the "Red Cross Knights" for the crusades? I think there is every reason to bring up the murderous history of the religious considering that they have been consistent up till ohhhhhhh this year. Bush himself called for a crusade until his trainers got a muzzle on him. It just sort of "slipped out" I guess.
@tomic
I assume by 'Red Cross Knights', you mean the Knights Templar, as that was the military order distinguished by a red cross on a white field. As they ceased to exist centuries ago (Masonic mythology to the contrary), there are none now to blame. I certainly don't blame any current Knight of Malta for the Crusades. (The Knights of Malta used to by the Knights Hospitlar.) I place the blame firmly where it belongs, on the Popes that used the Crusades for purely political gain, and the Heads of State that used them as a means to enlarge thier territories and their coffers.
While President Bush is an idiot, and obviously has hired stupid speech writers, I think you read too much into that slip. The word 'crusade' has made its way into common parlance to mean 'a targeted campaign.' I've heard the March of Dimes refered to as a 'crusade against birth defects'. |
"How many angels can swim on the head of a beer?" - Roger Ramjet |
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Avenel
Skeptic Friend
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 19:55:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
My bias is anti-bigotry
Fooled me.
Then I apologize, to you and everyone reading, for my poor skills. That was not my intent. |
"How many angels can swim on the head of a beer?" - Roger Ramjet |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 19:59:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
And this has what to do with "historic Jesus" exactly?
Nothing, exactly. Perhaps a case could be made for an atheist's lack of belief in Christ, and so forth, but that's a streach.
So, in a feeble attempt to get back to topic, I'll state that the crucifiction of Jesus, if it happened (most likely, SOME unfortunate bastard named Jesus got nailed up, probably several) is wrong in the description. The Romans didn't do it that way.
The nails were put through the wrists, not the hands, where they'd easily tear out. The legs were broken at the shins, crossed, then nailed through the breaks, isn't this fun? Death was actually from suffocation due to the diaphram being unable to work properly from all the body's weight being hung from the arms for an extended period.
I imagine that a crucifiction was a pretty noisy affair, what with all the choking and wheezing as the traitorus body struggled to breath for as long as possible.
A nasty way to go, eh? A good, solid spear thrust would be most welcome.
All of the accounts of the death of Jesus seem to have been cleaned up a bit. As, I suspect, was his life (assuming). Itinerant preachers are often not the most honest members of a society, and Jesus was first written about by his devoted followers. And, there seems to be a fairly large gap in those writings.
f |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 20:09:11 [Permalink]
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| Don't forget that when you were crucified no one took you down when you were dead. That was the whole point, that's why they were hoisted up into the air. To be seen by every passer by as they slowly rotted. There was no taking down for a decent burial, there were crows & buzzards to take care of that detail. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 20:10:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
While President Bush is an idiot, and obviously has hired stupid speech writers, I think you read too much into that slip. The word 'crusade' has made its way into common parlance to mean 'a targeted campaign.' I've heard the March of Dimes refered to as a 'crusade against birth defects'.
Got to agree. Entirely too much was made of this asinine remark. Unfortunatly, the folks in the mid-east also made a big deal of it. More idiots!
But, back to who exactly was Jesus Christ?
I think he was an itinerent preacher who was in the right place at the right time, with literate if fixated followers, to earn himself a high place in myth and ledgend.
f |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 20:18:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Don't forget that when you were crucified no one took you down when you were dead. That was the whole point, that's why they were hoisted up into the air. To be seen by every passer by as they slowly rotted. There was no taking down for a decent burial, there were crows & buzzards to take care of that detail.
I hadn't forgotten. I just didn't want to beat a dead savior.
Edited to add: Slater's entirely right. The Romans were pretty ridged in their laws and it's unlikely that they would have allowed Jesus's body to have been taken away before it was no more than bones and dessicated bits of flesh fallen to the ground.
f |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 12/04/2002 20:36:44 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 20:59:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Avenel
Not really. That page includes casualty rates for the Crusades for both sides. If you do that, then to be fair, you must attribute to Atheists all the casualties on the Western Front of WWII, the Chinese Civil War, the Vietnam War, the Korean War, all the victims of the Kmer Rouge, and don't forget the 20 million Russians killed by Stalin.
Understood, but I'm not sure it matters. DA was comparing 100 years of atheist killings to 1900 years of Christian killings. That's absurd on its face.
quote:
Now, to be fair, I don't think any of those, except for the last 2, can totally be pinned on Atheists. I'm just objecting in principle to the methodology. In fact, I don't believe in the concept of collective guilt, so I don't believe it's right to hold all Atheists to blame for those last two.
I agree. There was, however, nothing in my posts that indicated I was engaging in "collective guilt" assigning. I was just aghast that DA would make so ludicrous a comparison.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 21:12:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Avenel
Atheism is broader than you know.
Actually, it's narrower than you think.
quote:
It can be a passive lack of belief, but it also can be an active disbelief. It isn't always a belief system, but it can be.
I don't see how the word "atheism" describes a system at all. "Atheism" can't possibly describe a single system since the only necessary condition of atheism is the lack of belief in a deity or deities. The most you can say is that atheists have belief systems. This is undisputed.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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