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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 07/26/2001 : 14:22:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
"Some have such command of their bowels, that they can break wind continuously at pleasure, so as to produce the effect of singing."
-St. Augustine, "The City of God"
ROFL! I'm SOOOO tempted to make that my new signature! 
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Ma gavte la nata! |
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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend
USA
188 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2001 : 16:21:00 [Permalink]
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the first date is from the council of nicea shortly after constantine made christianity the official religion of the roman empire. the nicean creed, aka the apostles creed was devised as the official statement of faith of christianity as approved by the roman empire. shortly thereafter the roman empire began to suppress other versions of christianity such as the arian (after the rogue bishop arias) heresy.
the second event circa 1300 was what i remember being the council of trent. at that time the college of cardnals revised the "bible". i forget when the church allowed the new testament to be translated from greek to latin (known as "the vulgate", meaning the common language).
also bravo to slater's response to that silly fundi post.
comrade billyboy |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2001 : 17:36:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
the second event circa 1300 was what i remember being the council of trent.
Comrade,
The Council of Trent was held from 1545 to 1563 (during the RC counter-reformation). The Nicene Creed is, as you said, the profession of belief given by the council of that name. The Apostles Creed however, did not come into being until probably the 8th century CE.
Greg.
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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend
USA
188 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2001 : 18:41:10 [Permalink]
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[quote
The Council of Trent was held from 1545 to 1563 (during the RC counter-reformation). The Nicene Creed is, as you said, the profession of belief given by the council of that name. The Apostles Creed however, did not come into being until probably the 8th century CE.
Greg.
[/quote]
thanks for the correction. i was under the impression that nicean creed and apostle's creed were essentially the same, but i'll try to find the chronology.
comrade billyboy |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2001 : 18:59:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
thanks for the correction. i was under the impression that nicean creed and apostle's creed were essentially the same, but i'll try to find the chronology.
You're welcome. They are very similar. They are both based upon the baptismal promises and essentially say the same thing. I used to think they were the same also. The differences are nit-picky and theological. I won't get into it.
Greg.
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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend
USA
188 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2001 : 19:05:52 [Permalink]
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ok greg, i checked the catholiv enclyopedia on the creed. it includes a very long article about its origin and differences between catholic and protestant theology on the matter, but it also states:
" A few years before this (c. 390), the letter addressed to Pope Siricius by the Council of Milan (Migne, P.L., XVI, 1213) supplies the earliest known instance of the combination Symbolum Apostolorum ("Creed of the Apostles") "
so i'll argue my date on the creed is better, while recognizing that today's version did evolve over a number of centuries.
geez maybe we should move to a theology topic. i think church history is fascinating, but i only dabble.
comrade billyboy |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2001 : 20:45:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
so i'll argue my date on the creed is better, while recognizing that today's version did evolve over a number of centuries.
Okay. The first mention of an Apostolic Creed (Symbol) is from the 4th century CE as you state. There does appear to be significant evidence that there was a number of creeds at that time and subsequently calling themselves Apostolic. The wording that has become the standard Apostles Creed however comes frome the time of Charlemagne (7th century CE) and seems to have originated in southwestern France. Charlemagne, being the first western Emperor since the fall of Rome was keen to establish himself as a separate power from Byzantium. He was known to have a deep interest in theology - I believe that he saw the political implications. Charlemagne also pressed for usage of the filioque terminology in the creeds. This enraged the Greeks and was one of the major reasons for the East-West schism several hundred years later.
quote:
geez maybe we should move to a theology topic. i think church history is fascinating, but i only dabble.
I find it fascinating as well. I don't think that theology would be considered a pertinent subject for a skeptics forum though.
Greg.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2001 : 21:54:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
I find it fascinating as well. I don't think that theology would be considered a pertinent subject for a skeptics forum though.
Oh, please don't think that! I love these discussions, they're very fascinating, educational, and entertaining. Religion section and/or General Discussion is fine! 
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2001 : 22:23:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Oh, please don't think that! I love these discussions, they're very fascinating, educational, and entertaining. Religion section and/or General Discussion is fine!
History discussions are usually interesting and informative. Church history is necessarily sprinkled with some theology. To get into heavy theological discussions can get quite weird very fast. I have no problem discussing theology with respect to church history, that's where my interest & knowlege are.
Greg.
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Marc_a_b
Skeptic Friend
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2001 : 06:55:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
I find it fascinating as well. I don't think that theology would be considered a pertinent subject for a skeptics forum though.
Oh I think there are a number of ways in which religions can be discussed. Such as the history, where a particular religion originated from, it's development, influence on society, societie's influence on it. Like how the 'unchanging word of god' has changed over the years, and some stuff that wasn't changed it simply ignored today.
There is discussing the interaction of religion and society today, such as creationism, GWB's faith based initiative, religions that deny medical care, and what the law says/should say about these.
There is investigating the claims of miracles. Your shrouds, healing sites, biblical figures appearing in trees and stained windows.
And one of my favorite topics, cults. My favorite cult, $cientology, is not realy religion at all, though they claim to be quite loudly and often.
Or like today in the news is a story of a man being released from prison after 13 years. This comes from a priest telling the real killer confessed to him years ago, but waited until the person had died before letting anyone know the man in prison was innocent. Confidentiality of the confesional don'tcha know?
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2001 : 10:27:59 [Permalink]
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The history of the Christian creeds reads like an Appalachian family tree, with numerous bifurcations and reconnections.
The very earliest proto-creeds were likely pre-baptismal affirmations of the most basic tenets of the Chrstian faith. Some bible scholars claim that these early creeds may be found in Paul and other early epistles.
1 Corinthians 15:3-4
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures.
The Nicene(-Constantinopolitan) creed (325 & 381 C.E.) grew out of earlier oral creedal traditions to become the earliest 'official' creed, and remains the only official creed of the Eastern Orthodox Churches. ( http://oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Doctrine/Nicene-Creed.html )
The Apostles creed was similarly based on earlier Roman creeds, and may be found in part in the writings of early Roman church fathers Tertullian and Ignatius. The Apostles Creed was slightly modified and made official for the Western church at Trent in the mid 1500s. ( http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01629a.htm )
Various derivations of the ealiest creeds have continued to be used in the ritual of baptism to this day, it seems the Coptic and Ethiopian churches retained somthing closest to the original pre-Pauline version.
( http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04479a.htm )
So, we see a progressive development of more elaborate doctrine over time, illustrating the mythmaking process by which all religion is birthed. Even more dramatic is the progession to be found in Jesus alleged biographies.
I suppose this post would be better in the religion section? Is anyone interested in pursuing such matters?
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2001 : 11:06:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Is anyone interested in pursuing such matters?
Sure, why not. I will start a thread in the Religion section on the evolution of Christian thought. Most of what I have read and studied has to do with Church history from the beginnings of the Christian era to the high Middle Ages (circa 13th century). It could be refreshing to gain some more insight.
Greg.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2001 : 13:10:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
And one of my favorite topics, cults. My favorite cult, $cientology, is not realy religion at all, though they claim to be quite loudly and often.
I heard that L. Ron Hubbard started Scientology to win a bet. He said that if he pulled together a whole bunch of pseudoscience and packaged it as a religion, he could get people to follow it. (He won , BTW.)
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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend
USA
188 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2001 : 13:23:18 [Permalink]
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excellent idea greg. the evolution (evil-ution) of religion or religious thought, or social implications all good topics where we don't really have to deal with messy subjective beliefs.
comrade billyboy |
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Marc_a_b
Skeptic Friend
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2001 : 14:05:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
I heard that L. Ron Hubbard started Scientology to win a bet. He said that if he pulled together a whole bunch of pseudoscience and packaged it as a religion, he could get people to follow it. (He won , BTW.)
Not quite true. He was supposed to have said that makeing a penny a word is a waste of time, to realy get rich you have to start a religion. There is no definit answer to when or with who he said this, but it does fit him. Scientology didn't start out as a religion, and honestly it never was. On his death I heard the fight over the inheritance included $600 million. So who cares if there was a bet or not, the guy had it all!! Loads of money, thousands of people who looked up to him as if he was god, and even teenage girls in hotpants to carry out his every whim! He and Hugh Hefner are people we can say won the game of life! 
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