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Legallee Insane
Skeptic Friend
Canada
126 Posts |
 Posted - 12/10/2002 : 22:31:41
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--"Only the fool says in his heart: There is no god -- The wise says it to the world"
--"I darn you to HECK!" - Catbert
--"Don't worry, we're not laughing at you, we're laughing near you." |
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Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 22:40:36 [Permalink]
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Freedom of Speech has limits, because you can't say anything to intimidate or hurt someone (I think).
It should be considered illegal because it is a fire hazard, with a fine or jail time!
These are the iffy areas that the constitution didn't account for.
I think if you read the Canadian Charter on Rights or Freedoms it says that you can't say the Holocaust didn't happen or burn crosses, because it infringes on the rights of others.
anyone know if there is something like this in the US bill of rights? |
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ChuckV
New Member
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2002 : 00:56:58 [Permalink]
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| My thinking is that burning a cross on your own land is free speech. Do that on someone else's land and you are threatening them. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2002 : 03:59:22 [Permalink]
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There goes that 'conservative' ACLU representing the far right again!
I never felt that we could legislate common sense. That would require the legislators to have enough common sense to define common sense.
Seriously, cross burning can represent a real expression of speech, just as flag burning. This may not be a particularly reasonable way to express yourself, but who ever said we were all reasonable? Speech should only be limited when a person is directly threatenned, an immediate call to violence is sounded, or in cases of slander or libel.
There are other ways to limit irrational displays of hostility such as cross burning. There are laws against open fires or burning trash, (or crosses). We have bonfires along the levies for many celebrations, but a permit is required. Trespassing and loittering often work fairly well. Causing a public nuisance, or a safety hazard are problems with stupid protests like this.
There are other ways to shut the idiots up, rather than passing laws that may be used against us on another day. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2002 : 04:06:30 [Permalink]
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I think part of the problem is that the crimes you could easily be prosecuted for like burning during a burn ban or littering are not going to deter the highly motivated. So you are faced with something less than a slap in the face for intimidating someone this severely. You get more of a severe finger wagging. Yeah, the Ku Klux Klan could never handle punishment that severe. What's littering get you? A ticket?
@tomic
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Terryt88
Skeptic Friend
USA
120 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2002 : 07:48:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilted Warrior
Freedom of Speech has limits, because you can't say anything to intimidate or hurt someone (I think).
Yeah the SC defines them as "fighting words." IT's been a while, I can't quite remember how they objectively define such a word, but I think the SC has this list of criteria that the word and context must fit.
Plus there is the whole yelling fire in a crowded building part as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim
There are other ways to limit irrational displays of hostility such as cross burning. There are laws against open fires or burning trash, (or crosses). We have bonfires along the levies for many celebrations, but a permit is required. Trespassing and loittering often work fairly well. Causing a public nuisance, or a safety hazard are problems with stupid protests like this.
You know, I didn't know much about about Idaho before I moved here. Apprently North Idaho has a pretty tainted past when it comes to religeous and ethnic bigotry. But not all of the people are like that.
One of the things shopowners in Coeurdalene, Idaho do when the KKK marches is to pass out free movie tickets or plan a city bar-b-que. I always thought that was a really good way to get kids off the streets. Plus the mayor tried to make them march by the city dump. 
I guess I am lucky to live in Moscow, the only (loosest sense of the word) "liberal" city in Idaho.  |
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Legallee Insane
Skeptic Friend
Canada
126 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2002 : 15:03:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think part of the problem is that the crimes you could easily be prosecuted for like burning during a burn ban or littering are not going to deter the highly motivated.
This is probably the biggest problem because the penalties for these types of activities (if ever given out) are no more than fines or community service.
How oftem have people faced jail time for participating in such activities, whether purposely intimidating someone or not? |
--"Only the fool says in his heart: There is no god -- The wise says it to the world"
--"I darn you to HECK!" - Catbert
--"Don't worry, we're not laughing at you, we're laughing near you." |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2002 : 03:34:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
[I think part of the problem is that the crimes you could easily be prosecuted for like burning during a burn ban or littering are not going to deter the highly motivated.]
Just what measures, exactly, would be required to deter the 'highly motivated'? At what point would we begin to encroach upon the 8th and the 9th ammendments? How easy should we make it for a righteously indignant clansman to martyr himself or herself with a lengthy and well publicized court battle, and subsequent incarceration? And finally, just how much deterance is accorded by laws such as this Virginia law?
Do we really need to compound the problems we already face with so many expanded complications?
The 'speech clause' of the 1st Ammendment is not about good speech, or moral speech, or politically expedient speech, or even popular speech. It's about all speech. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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| Edited by - Tim on 12/13/2002 12:32:58 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2002 : 08:00:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilted_Warrior
Freedom of Speech has limits, because you can't say anything to intimidate or hurt someone (I think).
It should be considered illegal because it is a fire hazard, with a fine or jail time!
These are the iffy areas that the constitution didn't account for.
I think if you read the Canadian Charter on Rights or Freedoms it says that you can't say the Holocaust didn't happen or burn crosses, because it infringes on the rights of others.
anyone know if there is something like this in the US bill of rights?
In the US, we have unprecedented freedom of speech. As long as you do not threaten another with violence or incite people to violence or panic, your speech is protected. The Klan often denies the Holocaust. This is countered by many groups pointing out the documentation which proves the scope and depth of the Holocaust. Nothing takes the wind out of the sails of bigotry than cold, hard facts refuting their position. You won't reach the folks spouting this junk, but you don't amplify thier voice by jailing them, either.
Individual states have laws against intimidation. These are usually worded such as "any act or statement taken by reasonable people to be an immediate threat of violence against an individual". Therefore, burning a cross in a field, on your own property, or even part of a Klan rally, is protected free speech because there is no immediate threat of violence against an individual. Burning a cross in the front yard of a home which is not the burner's has an implied immediate threat of violence against an individual.
When someone burns a cross in the front yard of another, its personal.
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TEDPOX
New Member
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 00:27:09 [Permalink]
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I'm curious to the wording on this policy. I use a smoker and a pit when I have BBQ's and don't see a single thing different from me using wood chunks in the pit or if I burn a cross shaped piece of wood in the pit. Other than the fact I have the RIGHT to burn this wood in any shape I want I don't see a difference between me and the Klansman except there is no malice on my part. If the klansmen stand around their cross roasting marshmallows on sticks or some kebobs does that make it a campfire cookout?
I'm not trying to be funny, I'm trying to understand where some people,the government included, get off on telling us how to live our lives.
Hate groups are entitled to feel whatever they want regardless of what I or anyone else feels. If they want to burn a cross on THEIR or a friends property...fine. If they need a permit then give it to them. If fire codes say they need to have this or that to have there little party then make sure they have everything up to safety code. If they petition for the use of public land then let them use it as long as everyone is invited. If you don't like what they have to say or disagree or feel uncomfortable with the whole subject then don't go. Freedom of choice is a wonderful thing.
I'm not a Klansman nor a bigot so why can't I burn a piece of wood? I do it twice a week right now when I make ribs or chicken. If I light a 10 foot wooden penis on my lawn as a bonfire will the gay/lesbian/ homosexual community come down on me as a gay-basher and a homophobe? How about a 10 inch wooden penis? Funny? How about a 10 inch wooden cross? Does it matter if it's 10 inches or ten feet?
Where do my rights stop and start and where do yours? When someone yells "foul"? Everyone is offended by something or someone and now we have a government and media backed policy of political correctness that I would be happy to tell you where you can stick it. If you disagree with where I tell you to stick your political correctness then you have the ability and the right to ignore me. It's all part of our 1st amendment. 
I look forward to being bashed for my post. |
I've had about enough of me. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 08:37:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by TEDPOX
I look forward to being bashed for my post.
Not a chance. You are absolutely right. |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 08:57:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by TEDPOX
I'm curious to the wording on this policy. I use a smoker and a pit when I have BBQ's and don't see a single thing different from me using wood chunks in the pit or if I burn a cross shaped piece of wood in the pit. Other than the fact I have the RIGHT to burn this wood in any shape I want I don't see a difference between me and the Klansman except there is no malice on my part. If the klansmen stand around their cross roasting marshmallows on sticks or some kebobs does that make it a campfire cookout?
I'm not trying to be funny, I'm trying to understand where some people,the government included, get off on telling us how to live our lives.
Hate groups are entitled to feel whatever they want regardless of what I or anyone else feels. If they want to burn a cross on THEIR or a friends property...fine. If they need a permit then give it to them. If fire codes say they need to have this or that to have there little party then make sure they have everything up to safety code. If they petition for the use of public land then let them use it as long as everyone is invited. If you don't like what they have to say or disagree or feel uncomfortable with the whole subject then don't go. Freedom of choice is a wonderful thing.
I'm not a Klansman nor a bigot so why can't I burn a piece of wood? I do it twice a week right now when I make ribs or chicken. If I light a 10 foot wooden penis on my lawn as a bonfire will the gay/lesbian/ homosexual community come down on me as a gay-basher and a homophobe? How about a 10 inch wooden penis? Funny? How about a 10 inch wooden cross? Does it matter if it's 10 inches or ten feet?
Where do my rights stop and start and where do yours? When someone yells "foul"? Everyone is offended by something or someone and now we have a government and media backed policy of political correctness that I would be happy to tell you where you can stick it. If you disagree with where I tell you to stick your political correctness then you have the ability and the right to ignore me. It's all part of our 1st amendment.
I look forward to being bashed for my post.
In the cases you list, you are burning these things in either a public place or your own yard. This is traditionally protected speech. (or a really good BBQ.) I wouldn't worry too much about the case, there are several pre-existing cases where the Klan held a rally in a public forest and burned a cross. They obeyed all pertinent safety laws. They were found to be expressing their first amendment rights and the cross burning in those cases was protected free speech. (I believe the court said that free speech, even if objectionable or odious, may not be abridged because someone was offended.) Sadly, they ruled in R.A.V. v St. Paul (505 USC 377, 1992) that even burning a cross on your neighbor's yard was protected speech.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=505&invol=377
Your rights end when you come on my property without my permission and burn these same things. It's even worse if the intent is to intimidate me.
The old adage is "Your right to swing your fist in the air ends at my nose." When you cross from your own private space or public space into the private space of another, then your rights are superceded by the other persons rights.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2002 : 05:21:37 [Permalink]
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| Freedom of Speech is an illusion. |
Death: The High Cost of Living
It is easier to get forgiveness then to get permission! |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2002 : 07:27:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Shari
Freedom of Speech is an illusion.
Doc Shari: Master of the Understatement.
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2002 : 07:32:21 [Permalink]
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You can't say that!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Shari
Freedom of Speech is an illusion.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2002 : 18:27:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilted_Warrior
Freedom of Speech has limits, because you can't say anything to intimidate or hurt someone (I think).
Well, it's not just a matter of thinking it, it's a law. However I do think that some of those laws go too far (in trying protect). Look at what Oprah said about beef that caused such a stir.
I also question what is so terrible about burning a cross? To me a cross has no meaning, if I burned one (let's say to keep warm for fire wood) and got arested for doing that, I'd be puzzled as to what was going on.
Another point, the so called 'hate crime' law, is only a duplicate of existing laws in the 1st place. If you are planning to kill someone isn't hate a possible motive anyway? Why make one certain motive more important than any other? |
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