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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
 Posted - 12/29/2002 : 19:12:33 [Permalink]
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Just back in from the weekend. Thanks for the links, Kil.
After watching the program last Friday night, I'd say there was enough dirt to warrant some form of criminal investigation.
Remember back to the fun spring of '87, and the fall of the house of Jim 'n Tammy's PTL?, and old Swaggerin' Swaggart and Anal Robert's 600 foot tall Jesus? What a hoot!
Those charlatan's wall started to tumble down with one reporter's story. Maybe this spring we'll all be treated with a similar toppling.
Hope they can nail this Hinn circus act. Looks like George Jetson does his hair! It's considerbly more tame now a days that it was years ago. Was a riot to see him and his hair along side the purple haired TBN lady Jan Couch.
Got a kick out of Dateline's line-up of other sleaze merchant stories
leading up to the Hinn story, and use of diobolical sounding music going in and out of commercials.
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"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2002 : 21:38:42 [Permalink]
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The whole of faith healing seems like it would be sure grounds for fraud charges but for the obvious. It is unnerving to realize the reason these fellows even maintain is because our 90% theist nation allows their individual beliefs to so color their politics that they are literally unable to see painfully obvious charlatanry right in front of their faces.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2002 : 04:38:39 [Permalink]
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Sorry, I missed the show, but I was at work, as usual, and spend very little time with network TV. That said, I agree with PhD in that we have national propensity to, at the least, tolerate obvious scams simply because they may be founded in popular theism.
On the other hand, I really do feel that people like Hinn are much more dangerous than Billy Graham. Both may be equally guilty of cooking the books, (I can only speculate), but Hinn goes one giant step further. In his efforts to defraud, he promises true believers that all they need is faith. In this case, if one of those true believers dies because they stop taking their medication to prove their faith, Hinn is guilty of contributing to that death. Quite frankly, if this guy is skimming, then he probably also realizes that he is healing nothing, and he deserves a very long stay at the nearest state pen, with big bad Bubba as his roomy.
This type of confidence game is the vey worse people can play, and it shows a complete lack of moral or social accountability. I have little more use for any holier-than-thou prosecuter that does not choose to pursue a person like Hinn simply because that public official is unwilling to upset the tender sensibilities of the American theist.
If there is a Hell, then these people have a reserved the Honeymoon Suite. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2002 : 11:04:15 [Permalink]
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| Graham vs. Hinn reminds me of that other thread on SFN about licenseing San Francisco psychics...to weed out the fake ones. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2003 : 11:24:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Slater:
Graham vs. Hinn reminds me of that other thread on SFN about licenseing San Francisco psychics...to weed out the fake ones.
Slater, you seem unable to recognize grey areas where it comes to promoting religion. What is being discussed isn't wheter Graham's theology has value. This is about whether Hinn is a total flim flam man. Graham may very well believe his own bullshit. I think that his willingness to allow access to his books demonstrates that, at the very least, some of money that Graham raises goes where he says it does.
On the other hand, you have Hinn. It would seem that he is nothing more than a con man. A guy who doesn't believe his own bullshit. Hinn, in my view, is completely and utterly ethically and morally corrupt. Graham may be just full of shit. There is a difference.... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2003 : 13:27:36 [Permalink]
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Slater, you seem unable to recognize grey areas where it comes to promoting religion.
It dates back to my days in graduate school where, on the side, I studied slight of hand magic with Zorvello the Great.
When you look at Graham and you look at Hinn you are looking at exactly the same scam only it is being done in two different styles. To use the magic analogy Hinn is a carney while Graham is playing Vegas. They are both taking the last five bucks from little old ladies they never even met. They both give nothing in return but snappy patter and unfulfillable promises.
I doubt that Graham believes his own BS--although, in the end, Doug Henning actually started to believe his own, so you may be right. It is hard to over estimate self delusion.
His openness with his books is either "the art of misdirection," (look at these beautiful books {he doesn't have a scantilly clad assistant} instead of what I'm actually doing) or "hiding in plain sight." (see how HONEST I am, I'm telling you about my Lear Jet. Nothing wrong with being HONEST {look at the honesty and not at the money}) Both are standard SoH tactics.
In many ways Graham is the more dangerous of the two. Hinn targets the sick and desperate. Graham, on the other hand sets his sights on the super rich and powerful. Although he does get much of his vast fortune from poor suckers. He has been "advising" American Presidents since he gave up the Fuller Brush Company and took his religion show on the road. You'll find that a great deal of the "fundi" perversion that has infected the Republican Party actually stems from Graham.
While Hinn does some terrible things to a few, Graham's mechanicans affect us all.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2003 : 00:09:28 [Permalink]
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| Did anyone tape the Benny Hinn expose on Dateline. I sure would like a copy. Am willing to pay, also. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2003 : 09:01:43 [Permalink]
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Sung to Dire Straits Money for Nothing
Now look at them yo-yo's that's the way you do it
You play the fools on the TBN
That ain't workin' that's the way you do it
Money for nothin' and chicks for free
Now that ain't workin' that's the way you do it
Lemme tell ya them guys ain't dumb
Maybe get a soreness in your little throat
Maybe get an ache on your big fat bum
We gotta install microwave ovens
Custom kitchen deliveries
We gotta move these refrigerators
We gotta move these colour TV's
See the little evangelists with the Bible and the microphone
Yeah buddy that's his own hair
That little evangelists got his own jet airplane
That little evangelists he's a millionaire
We gotta install microwave ovens
Custom kitchens deliveries
We gotta move these refrigerators
We gotta move these colour TV's
I shoulda learned to play the fools
I shoulda learned to play them Bible verses
Look at that mama, she got it fallin' on the floor
Man we could have some fun
And he's up there, what's that? Preachin' noises?
Bangin' on the Bible like a chimpanzee
That ain't workin' that's the way you do it
Get your money for nothin' get your chicks for free
We gotta install microwave ovens
Custom kitchen deliveries
We gotta move these refrigerators
We gotta move these colour TV's, Lord
Now that ain't workin' that's the way you do it
You play the fools on the TBN
That ain't workin' that's the way you do it
Money for nothin' and your chicks for free
Money for nothin' and chicks for free
Sorry couldn't resist, note I do not in any way advocate such a profession for any young readers out there, you are better off moving those TV's. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2003 : 11:59:05 [Permalink]
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I want my
I want my
I want my TBN....
LOL, nice stuff |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2003 : 23:00:45 [Permalink]
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| I saw the video of most of the Dateline expose on Hinn and read the transcript. You kinda wish things were just simple black and white, but they aren't. Some people have had amazing things happen to them at the Benny Hinn crusades. My mom had an injured shoulder healed and she believes it was God who did it. She no longer believes in the Benny Hinn ministry because of some of his crazy antics, but her shoulder is still well. I definitely think he's a false prophet and Charlatan. His lifestyle is evidence of that and the phoney antics on stage are disgusting. The Bible tells how love never acts in an unseemly way. Well, here's some more stuff to make you think. When I was in my early twenties I lived at a friend's house. I was woke up very early one morning by someone who told me to hurry out as "Arlene" was very sick. She was my friend's mom. She was sitting on the couch very pale and weak. She was asking her son to call for an ambulance. In those days (70's), an ambulance was 20 or 30 minutes away and a round trip to the hospital (no paramedics, by the way) would have been maybe 45 minutes at very best. Arlene starting to turn blue and was passing out. Her last words were "call an ambulance". Her son said to her, "there isn't time, Mom." He prayed an ernest prayer for Jesus to save his mom's life. In a few minutes, the blood started flowing again and the color came into her face. She sat up. After a few more minutes she said, "When you prayed I felt Jesus take a hold of my heart and calm it down." She described later how it felt like a charley horse in her heart and then like something broke and it was beating uncontrollably. I later read a magazine article that described what happened to her as fibrilation of the heart...loss of regular sinus rythem. That's when they get the paddles out boys and girls and zap you! The article said 90 some percent (maybe 99, I don't remember)die if this happens to them outside of a hospital without emergency equipment. Well, anyway, this Arlene did not die, but was very sick and weak. A few days later, she went to the hospital for an exam, and they did a cardiogram. After that, they would not let her hardly move and said she'd had the signs of a massive heart attack and she would have to stay in the hospital. She chose to come home after signing many release forms (I was there when that happened too.) A few days later her son had a prayer meeting in the home with his mom in bed resting. He went into her room and prayed and something happened. She starting laughing real loud and saying thank you, Jesus, and such. She later said she was healed. Okay, sounds good. Then she was sick for a few months and finally got her strength back and went to work again....right?...ehhh...wrong. She went back to work in two weeks after the heart attack and worked till she retired. I saw this from beginning to end. So when you think to discount all miracles because of some Charlatan, remember the one who privately slipped in among the sick folks, healed a very sick man, and left without anyone hardly knowing what happened...that is the way the real Christ worked. Maybe, just maybe He is the same today. What do you think? |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2003 : 23:13:37 [Permalink]
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I seem to remember this Jesus guy praying to god to "let this cup pass him by." You would think, wouldn't you, that if god would answer any bodies prayers He would answer His own? But He didn't even do that.
What do I think? I think you saw a woman who had a heart attack and got better. I think that if you associate any magic words that were said at the time with her recovery you are deluding yourself. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 12:01:30 [Permalink]
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"I seem to remember this Jesus guy praying to god to "let this cup pass him by""
Dear Slater,
You'll recall at the end of that request Jesus said, "Nevertheless, not my will but thine be done." It was more important to Jesus to obey His Father, so that's what he did. Nobody chooses to die lightly.
I thought skeptics were for checking things out thoroughly, not just making swift presumptions based on their own whimsical ideas? |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 12:18:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Doomar: Her last words were "call an ambulance". Her son said to her, "there isn't time, Mom." He prayed an ernest prayer for Jesus to save his mom's life. In a few minutes, the blood started flowing again and the color came into her face. She sat up.
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Well, anyway, this Arlene did not die, but was very sick and weak. A few days later, she went to the hospital for an exam, and they did a cardiogram.
I don't care what the hell they/you believe. No one there had time to call an ambulance? If she had died because she didn't get medical care soon enough, her death would have been on her son's head. Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket! Nice that she didn't die this time. She was lucky. (I'm sure you don't see it that way.)
She had to be sick for a few days after the event before she actually went to the hospital? Her son should have arranged an immediate visit regardless of her miraculous recover that you assign to payer. She was still sick! If she had died, would her son have just chalked it up to Gods will?
Frankly, I read stories like this one and get pissed off. If she had died (and that happens more times then not when people decide that prayer is the best cure for a medical emergency) I would deem her son, and anyone there who could have called an ambulance, criminally negligent. I would support prosecution.
I'm glad she is doing fine.
I hope that if I ever have a condition that becomes a medical emergency, there is at least one person around who is not certifiable....
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 15:38:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Did anyone tape the Benny Hinn expose on Dateline. I sure would like a copy. Am willing to pay, also.
Ah Damn, I just ereased over my copy. Would have charged you a good price too.
But since I'm a nice guy I'll tell you that Dateline repeats some of it's programs on the Sunday night/Monday morning show that's on I think around 2 am. At least there's a broadcast of it here in the Los Angeles area. You might have one chance to catch it there (a shortened version). But also, don't they have a service where you can send for a copy direct from the company? Go on NBC's website or call them for more info. |
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