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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 01/13/2003 : 22:38:29 [Permalink]
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Oh well okay then. If you ignore what this prophesy says and you ignore the lack of an historic Jesus. And if you think that the laws of nature don't exist and prophesy is possible...then everything is just fine.
That makes just as much sense as you signature line. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2003 : 00:25:08 [Permalink]
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Slater: quote:
Oh well okay then. If you ignore what this prophesy says
Nobody is ignoring anything,merely seeking the meaning of an ancient Hebrew text as they understood it.Slater: quote:
And if you think
that the laws of nature don't exist and prophesy is possible..
What laws were violated If God exist then prophecy is surely possible.  |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2003 : 08:48:10 [Permalink]
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I forgot to mention that the Messiah was supposed to SAVE Israel. Even if you ignore that it was said to be from the Assyrians. Israel was destroyed it's people driven to the four corners of the Earth.
What laws were violated? Give me a break. If no laws were violated it wouldn't be magic. Why would a magic trick mean that God exists? It would only mean that the trick exists. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2003 : 09:22:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
What laws were violated If God exist then prophecy is surely possible.
Is that right? Not too fond of free will, are you? |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2003 : 09:52:24 [Permalink]
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DA,quote:
If the Jewish scholars of the Tanach thought these particular verses refered to the Messiah before Jesus
Like I said I agree, Jewish scholars think that this is a prophecy of the Messiah (just not of Jesus), no disagreement there.quote:
then they still have evidential value for the NT claim that Jesus is indeed the Messiah.
That's a leap of logic I doubt will convince very many Jews and it definitely doens't convince me.quote:
My own take on it would be that portion is still to be fufilled
The Assyrian kingdom is gone, it can't be fulfilled in the future.
In fact a detailed reading of the entire chapter does not show a savior for sins, but a warrior backed by his supernatural buddy killing every Assyrian in his wake.
It all boils down to this however:
1. To make the prophecy fit your intrepetation you have to pick one or two verses out of context from the rest of the chapter.
2. You have to ignore parts of the chapter that can no longer happen such as the defeat of the Assyrians.
3. Modern Jews who also want this to be a prophecy of the Messiah (just not of Jesus) also have to ignore the rest.
4. In fact Jews living since 600 BC have had to ignore the rest to still claim it as an accurate prophecy.
5. That is why you find lots of references in the OT about Assyrians and Assyria, over and over again wishing for its destruction, but not one mention in the NT. Why? Because Assyria was no more.
6. In fact that is why you find lots of references to Assyria from the books of the OT that were written around 700 - 600 BC, but nothing about the Assyrians written after 600 BC.quote:
is the forms of thought of that day that matter not our 21st century mindset
Exactly, and the thought of the day was, "Help us God for we are being persecuted by other nations, namely the Assyrians, send us a leader who will vanquish our foe and leave their body parts scattered over the fields to rot".
This whole attempt sounds like a bad case of quote mining, although I really can't blame you since it started with the writers of the Gospels. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2003 : 18:16:19 [Permalink]
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Well, the Rapture Ready people have done the same thing over at their website; they've started a "prophecy fulfilled" thread. Oh great, it's going to be a huge one.
See http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64634 |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2003 : 19:41:43 [Permalink]
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It seems that they're going to get all of their material from this site: http://www.messiahrevealed.org/. I think I'm going to ask around a bit for more help. I've got the bad feeling that I'm going to be alone on that one so far! What's more, the person who started it gave me the credit. All I did was tell her to go ahead and do as she suggested.
On the bright side, it doesn't look like what they're thrown at me is too hard yet. It seems to be a matter of context and looking at all the facts, not just picking and choosing as they seem to do. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2003 : 20:58:55 [Permalink]
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Well, here's something that may help us all out.
http://www.vanallens.com/bboard/viewtopic.php?t=34is a site that examines a bunch a messianic prophecies.
Also, there's http://www.geocities.com/antimissionary/links.html#anti-missionary |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2003 : 20:41:15 [Permalink]
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Phd: quote:
What laws were violated If God exist then prophecy is surely possible.
Is that right? Not too fond of free will, are you?
If as the Bible teaches that God "knows the end from the beginning" then I don't quite see how his predicting what he already knows destroys are ability to make decisions |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2003 : 20:49:36 [Permalink]
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Jmcginn: quote:
The Assyrian kingdom is gone, it can't be fulfilled in the future.[However,it seem the Assyrians are alive and well,for right now]
Assyrians in Ottoman
Archives
Undoing Jesus' Language?
East Valley Tribune newspaper on Monday December 23, 2002, Arizona, USA.
Iraqi Christians fear invasion backlash
By Vivienne Walt, USA TODAY
European Union directs its
attention to Assyrian suffering
The Assyrian Statehood:
Yesterday's Denial and Today's Moral Obligation
Religious intolerance is often self Destructive
Calling of the New Assyrian A Poetry Collection by Ninos Aho
Yousip Bet Yousip
Assyrians -- not just part of ancient
Keeping alive the
language of Jesus
From Warriors to Guardians
The Assyrians and their role in the history of Medicine
Samir Johna, M.D., F.A.C.S
Only squeaky wheels
get oiled
Sounds of Silence
Assyrians Speak the Language Jesus Spoke-But For How Long?
Assyrians in East Valley break
silence on Iraq
President Bush Includes Assyrians in Iraqi Political Formula
Why The Assyrian Nation?
By Fred Aprim
Author /Historian
KDP's Islamic Fundamentalist Ties Threaten Assyrians
Assyrians
After The Gulf War
Narrated by Wilfred Alkhas
• Historical Timeline From 1915 to the 1958 Iraqi Revolution Assyrians, The
Province of Mosul (Nineveh) and the League of Nations
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To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2003 : 20:51:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
If as the Bible teaches that God "knows the end from the beginning" then I don't quite see how his predicting what he already knows destroys are ability to make decisions
How does he know future outcomes if he hasn't already determined them?
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2003 : 22:59:48 [Permalink]
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Phd quote:
How does he know future outcomes if he hasn't already determined them?
Huhh? Because he's God. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2003 : 08:11:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
The Assyrian kingdom is gone, it can't be fulfilled in the future.[However,it seem the Assyrians are alive and well,for right now]
Yes there are Assyrian people alive today, the majority of which are Christians. However as I said the Assyrian kingdom is gone. This is the kingdom that invaded Israel and caused the praying and prophesizing for a savior to conquer the evil Assyrians. When the Assyrians were gone the prophecies and prayers went away.
Either way it goes the prophecy does not fit unless one assumes allot of things:
1. Only a couple of the verses taken out of context refer to Jesus.
2. That sometime in the future a new Assyrian kingdom will arise, turn away from Christanity, invade Israel, and then be defeated by Jesus.
3. That the verses starting at 5:4 suddenly jump to a future context.
4. That the reference to Bethlehem Ephratah refers to a town and not a person or clan.
All of these assumptions go against what a plain reading of the text and normal logic says and is only done because you have already made your decision as to what the text is about. The evidence is against your assumptions and your need to make it fit your interpretation for your Messiah. |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2003 : 08:14:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Huhh? Because he's God.
If God or any being knows what I am going to do tomorrow, then I am pre-ordained to do what is already known tomorrow, there is no way I can change my mind nor make a free choice of action. My perception of free choice is a facade, a fraud, a big lie. I cannot choose to do something outside of my pre-ordained actions, I am a robot and thus I have no real free will. If one of my future actions is already known to happen then there is no chance for me to choose for another action. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2003 : 16:53:05 [Permalink]
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here's how one person tries to explain away failed messianic prophecies at least they look like that to me): that they're discussing over at this thread: http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?s=7bb00cbd1e5ace39aa6c427a15831a24&threadid=64634
quote:
Billy, it seems to me, right now, that you're having a problem with the prophecies themselves- not just whether or not Jesus was the One who fulfilled them.
You keep wanting the messianic prophecies to be in the context of entire chapters. But this is not always the case, in fact they almost always seem to stand out and not quite fit in within the context of the original text.
Let me see if I can acurately describe what Messianic prophecies are and how they show up in the OT...
Maybe a Jew would answer this better, but it seems to me, that as the Holy Spirit inspired writings through His prophets, He sometimes would look ahead, knowing that He would be the One to save His people, and in the writings we can see these times when the Holy Spirit looks ahead.
It's almost as if, at times, The Holy Spirit is brooding over what The Son will have to endure, and at times joyous over the salvation He will bring to people, and at other times just looking ahead to the places and the events in the life of the Messiah. I also believe the Holy Spirit at times actually fills the writer with the emotions of the future Messiah which comes through in their writings.
Sometimes, in the middle of a text, you come upon a verse or verses that describe the messiah that don't even seem to fit within the rest of the text. This does not take away from the fact that it still is a prophecy. The Jews agree on many of the messianic prophecies, whether they seem out of context with the original text or not, (they don't believe that Jesus fulfilled them though)
I can best describe it as a foreshadowing of things to come, hidden within the text of the OT.
Hope I didn't confuse you more than you already were,
Let me know if you would rather continue with the most "obvious" messianic prophecies and then go on to the lesser obvious ones.
Any comments? |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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