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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
 Posted - 01/16/2003 : 17:09:10 [Permalink]
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Yeah I would have to say Kerri is picking and choosing anything out of context to verify their belief in a prophecy of Jesus.
In fact this is the main argument Jews present against these being prophecies of Jesus. Because the Gospel writers picked verses out of context and tried to make their story of Jesus fulfill them and throughout history Christians continued to do the same. DA is doing it here on this board. Pick one verse, don't worry about its context and apply it to Jesus. One of the links you posted deals pretty well with this:
Here is where a Jewish scholar deals with the Christian claim of Isiah 53 being a prophecy of Jesus. This site also handles several other verses as well, see the top menu bar.
http://www.messiahtruth.com/isai53a.html
A Jew as you can see would tell Kerri she is full of crap and don't know much about Hebrew nor how the OT was written and meant to be read.
Of course I am in no way advocating the Jews are right in believing this non-sense, but at least their story sticks together a whole lot better than that of Christians. The NT twists and distorts so much of the OT as to leave the two books irreconciable. (Of course they are both just myths of two very different middle eastern religions).
Her reference to chapters as well is erroneous, as you can see from the site above,quote:
The chapter divisions did not exist until about four hundred years ago. Therefore, it's important to examine this chapter in its context, and not just cut off the page, all by itself.
Not just verses must be read in context, but also whole chapters within the book as well. |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2003 : 20:38:40 [Permalink]
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Jmcginn: quote:
If God or any being knows what I am going to do tomorrow, then I am pre-ordained to do what is already known
tomorrow, there is no way I can change my mind nor make a free choice of action. My perception of free choice is a
facade, a fraud, a big lie. I cannot choose to do something outside of my pre-ordained actions, I am a robot and thus I
have no real free will. If one of my future actions is already known to happen then there is no chance for me to choose
for another action.
The conclusion does not follow the premise:"If God...knows"[what you willing choose to do] then your not a robot.Anyhow,I think, you need to start another thread for that discussion. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2003 : 20:53:42 [Permalink]
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Jmcginn: quote:
Either way it goes the prophecy does not fit unless one assumes allot of things:
1. Only a couple of the verses taken out of context refer to Jesus.
As I pointed out earlier if the NT writers were the first to claim that this prophecy (Mic.5:2)was referring to the birthplace of the Messiah then you would have a point.However,there already was a strong belief among the Jews prior to Jesus coming on the seen that this was the case Mt.2:1-8.3.[{Jmcginn:} That the verses starting at 5:4 suddenly jump to a future context.]
Also there is precident in scripture for prophecy being fulfilled over many years i.e.Ezk.26:3--36;Dan.9:24-27.  (edited for ref.).
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To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/16/2003 23:12:57 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2003 : 20:57:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
The conclusion does not follow the premise:"If God...knows"[what you willing choose to do] then your not a robot.
I do so love semantic tricks to make it seem like divine foreknowledge and "free will" are compatible. There's a whole school of apologetics that is predicated on it. A shining example of delusional thinking, I say.
quote:
Anyhow,I think, you need to start another thread for that discussion.
Not a bad idea.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2003 : 23:01:31 [Permalink]
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Phd: quote:
Not a bad idea.
Well bless my soul,we finaly agree on something! |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2003 : 20:49:31 [Permalink]
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Jmcgin: quote:
4. That the reference to Bethlehem Ephratah refers to a town and not a person or clan.
This cite discusses this question in a pretty through manner:http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/bethlehem.htm  |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2003 : 04:25:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
Jmcgin: quote:
4. That the reference to Bethlehem Ephratah refers to a town and not a person or clan.
This cite discusses this question in a pretty through manner:http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/bethlehem.htm
Interesting and challenging arguents. Good job. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 00:30:51 [Permalink]
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jmcginn: quote:
In fact this is the main argument Jews present against these being prophecies of Jesus. Because the Gospel writers
picked verses out of context and tried to make their story of Jesus fulfill them and throughout history Christians
continued to do the same. DA is doing it here on this board. Pick one verse, don't worry about its context and apply it
to Jesus. One of the links you posted deals pretty well with this:
Here is where a Jewish scholar deals with the Christian claim of Isiah 53 being a prophecy of Jesus. This site also
handles several other verses as well, see the top menu bar.
http://www.messiahtruth.com/isai53a.html
However,Jewish Scholars from the past have regarded this passage as messanic:Targum Jonathan:52:13"Behold,My servant the Messiah shall prosper;...(53:10) It is the will of the Lord to acquit as innocent the remanat of His people,...so they may see the kingdom of their Messiah." It seems it is you who haven't taken the time to research the subject in an open minded manner but approach the subject with preconceived notions that don't bear out under closer examination. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 11:25:39 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by Slater
Hundreds of Bible prophecies have already come to pass with complete accuracy. I know of no other book that can claim this
Jean Dixon, Miss Cleo, National Enquirer all made that claim. It's a common claim for con men to make.
I challenge you to find one "prophecy" made by any of these people that came true.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 11:32:21 [Permalink]
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This is rediculous and breaks all rules of reading.
Hmmm. Wonder if these writers were going by those rules. It was only a few thousand years ago in another language, but maybe they were...surely we Americans have a handle on all language and writing rules and no one should dare write outside of our rules. Good point. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 11:54:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jmcginn
[quote]Huhh? Because he's God.
If God or any being knows what I am going to do tomorrow, then I am pre-ordained to do what is already known tomorrow, there is no way I can change my mind nor make a free choice of action. My perception of free choice is a facade, a fraud, a big lie. I cannot choose to do something outside of my pre-ordained actions, I am a robot and thus I have no real free will. If one of my future actions is already known to happen then there is no chance for me to choose for another action.
This is a fallacy believed by many who claim to be Christians also. God's ability to be "all knowing" does not deny your choice in the matter. I could hear or read the plans of some person to go on a trip to Hawaii. Just knowing those facts doesn't make me part of their decision. God knows what we will do, but doesn't make us do anything. He does, however, in my opinion, according to my understanding of the Bible, work very hard to persuade men to turn from evil doing and thinking and trust in Him. He is constantly doing good, helping the thankful and unthankful, the just and the unjust. I have met a great number of people who have experienced God's intervention, sparing them from great harm, or doing some good thing for them. Some were devout and others profane. Yet each knew God had been good to them in a particular instance. To interpret prophecy as God's evil manipulation of people is perverse. God doesn't sin or tempt others to sin. If you pay attention while reading your Bible and prophecy, you'll see many instances where God predicts how he will use some leader in a far off country and even gives the reasons of the leader in contrast to His own motivations, thus clarifying how He can use men following there own desires to accomplish His will. If you still can't figure it out...join the club. “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55:8,9 |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 13:44:28 [Permalink]
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Doomar you are totally missing the point.
If God or any other being knows that tomorrow I will choose to not go to work then I am predestined to make that choice tomorrow. No matter that I cannot make any other choice, it may look like I am making a free choice, but I am not, its a facade/lie. By the way God did allot of evil deeds in the OT, he killed babies of all sorts, he ordered executions, rapes, and genocides, he killed people for all sorts of reasons. The God of the OT is such a description of an evil being I am always under the impression that Satan is the good guy in this fiction.
quote:
Hmmm. Wonder if these writers were going by those rules.
All languages share some common features. One of those is you identify who you are talking about before refering to them with a pronoun. DA's verse (Micah 5:2) out of context leaves the next several verses talking about a "He" that is never identified. |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 13:46:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
However,Jewish Scholars from the past have regarded this passage as messanic:Targum Jonathan:52:13"Behold,My servant the Messiah shall prosper;...(53:10) It is the will of the Lord to acquit as innocent the remanat of His people,...so they may see the kingdom of their Messiah." It seems it is you who haven't taken the time to research the subject in an open minded manner but approach the subject with preconceived notions that don't bear out under closer examination
Yes I agree Jewish scholars do intrepret this as a prophecy of the messiah, I have already stated as such, however they also regaurd all of the verses as dealing with this same Messaih not simply the two verses you plucked out of context. |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 13:54:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
Jmcgin: quote:
4. That the reference to Bethlehem Ephratah refers to a town and not a person or clan.
This cite discusses this question in a pretty through manner:http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/bethlehem.htm
Basically his entire argument is summed up as:
1. I think it should be this way because it makes my beliefs that it is about Jesus true.
Yes Bethlehem Ephrathah could refer to a town, but there were not thousands of towns so it is unlikely (notice he never touches that point). In fact his Example 2 totally destroys his point that Bethlehem Ephrathah is a town:quote:
And you Bethlehem-Ephrathah who are too little to be counted among the thousands of the house of Judah, from you in My name shall come forth the Messiah who is to be ruler in Israel and whose name has been called from eternity, from the days of old.
This contradicts his main argument that it is a town.
His points about the Assyrians bascially comes down to the same line of reasoning: "Hey I will distort this as much as possible to make it fit my needs". He is following the same lines that you and the author of Matthew used, I however refuse to follow such shallow reasoning. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 14:41:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
This is a fallacy believed by many who claim to be Christians also. God's ability to be "all knowing" does not deny your choice in the matter. I could hear or read the plans of some person to go on a trip to Hawaii. Just knowing those facts doesn't make me part of their decision.
Oh, come on. This is an awful analogy. Your overhearing someone talking about possible willful actions does not in any way compare to God's perfect knowledge of all events.
quote:
God knows what we will do, but doesn't make us do anything.
Apologists blithely repeat this as if it is obviously non-contradictory. Is this not the same God who created us, presumably with his foreknowledge intact?
quote:
He does, however, in my opinion, according to my understanding of the Bible, work very hard to persuade men to turn from evil doing and thinking and trust in Him.
"Work[ing] very hard" is a non-starter. If God is omnipotent, there are no actions which are any more difficult for him than any others. He doesn't have a body, so it's not like he's straining his muscles.
quote:
He is constantly doing good, helping the thankful and unthankful, the just and the unjust.
Funny, that, since it was God who did the original unjust action.
quote:
I have met a great number of people who have experienced God's intervention, sparing them from great harm, or doing some good thing for them. Some were devout and others profane. Yet each knew God had been good to them in a particular instance. To interpret prophecy as God's evil manipulation of people is perverse. God doesn't sin or tempt others to sin.
I fail to see how this relates to your defense of free will in the slightest.
quote:
If you pay attention while reading your Bible and prophecy, you'll see many instances where God predicts how he will use some leader in a far off country and even gives the reasons of the leader in contrast to His own motivations, thus clarifying how He can use men following there own desires to accomplish His will.
I guess that includes terrorizing the Israelites by hardening the Pharaoh's heart? |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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