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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
 Posted - 01/22/2003 : 17:55:57 [Permalink]
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jmcginn:Yes I agree Jewish scholars do intrepret this as a prophecy of the messiah, I have already stated as such, however
they also regaurd all of the verses as dealing with this same Messaih not simply the two verses you plucked out of
context. Perhaps you are unaware that Matthew probably forgot more about Hebrew hermenutics than you or I will ever know.So before you start to publish your manuscript on the subject you might want to consult some of the authoritative works on the subject besides the normal same old tired trap on the on the atheistic web pages. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 19:34:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
He does, however, in my opinion, according to my understanding of the Bible, work very hard to persuade men to turn from evil doing and thinking and trust in Him.
See, this is where the nonsense rears its ugly head.
God knew before he created Man what each and every person would do during their lives. God knew who would be doing evil things and thinking evil thoughts. He knew who would stop doing those things, and who wouldn't. Why, oh please why, would he need to "work very hard at persuad[ing]" men to stop doing these things if he already knew who would stop and who wouldn't?!
quote:
I have met a great number of people who have experienced God's intervention, sparing them from great harm, or doing some good thing for them.
But don't you see?! God knew, bazillions and bazillions and more years ago, before humans existed, that some people would be in terrible accidents, or contract terrible diseases, but would end up "miraculously" surviving. How is this in any way seen as something worth praising, when it was known what the outcome would be, and that the people in question were never in any danger of dying or suffering from whatever their "miracle" saved them from in the first place?
quote:
God doesn't sin or tempt others to sin.
Oh really? Then why does he repent of doing and thinking of doing evil deeds so often in the OT? (Ex 32:14, Jer. 18:8, Jer. 42:10, Jon. 3:10)
[oops, I guess this really belongs in the Free Will thread...] |
| Edited by - Tokyodreamer on 01/22/2003 19:35:24 |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 23:40:19 [Permalink]
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TD: quote:
Oh really? Then why does he repent of doing and thinking of doing evil deeds so often in the OT? (Ex 32:14, Jer. 18:8,
Jer. 42:10, Jon. 3:10)
[oops, I guess this really belongs in the Free Will thread...]
Correct.You need to check out E.Abbots' book Flatland(http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/flatland/)specially chp.'s 16 and on.When you are talking about an utral-dimensional Being you run into these kinds of problems.Also a book on biblical hermenutics.
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To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/22/2003 23:44:37 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 09:15:50 [Permalink]
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Since I'm not going to get around to reading Flatland any time soon, why don't you tell us, DA, how to solve the problems related to God's alleged ultra-dimensionality?
It's funny how apologists are so quick to capitalize on science that superficially supports their positions without having a clue about the implications. According to Superstring Theory, spatial dimensions above 3 are non-euclidian. They are little-bitty, Planck-sized curled-up pieces of space-time. No beings inhabit them. They are, currently, mathematical constructs that allow strings more "space" to vibrate. |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 09:35:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
When you are talking about an utral-dimensional Being you run into these kinds of problems.
What kind of problems?
quote:
Also a book on biblical hermenutics.
So I need another book to tell me what those verses really mean? Are you saying that when G-d repents, he really doesn't mean he repents, but he's talking about something completely different?
I thought this thing was supposed to be divinely inspired. You'd think one wouldn't need an interpreter, even after the fact that the words themselves are in one's native language! |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 23:08:49 [Permalink]
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Phd: quote:
t's funny how apologists are so quick to capitalize on science that superficially supports their positions without having a
clue about the implications. According to Superstring Theory, spatial dimensions above 3 are non-euclidian. They are
little-bitty, Planck-sized curled-up pieces of space-time. No beings inhabit them. They are, currently, mathematical
constructs that allow strings more "space" to vibrate.
Truly amazing...You can't give me one coherent definition of what a person/ality is but lo and behold if you don't have these Superstrings figured out!Tell me just how many of these Superstrings have you encountered? |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 23:55:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
Truly amazing...You can't give me one coherent definition of what a person/ality
Pot, kettle, etc. You'll need to do better than "clever things humans do" for any of your criticism to hold.
quote:
is but lo and behold if you don't have these Superstrings figured out!Tell me just how many of these Superstrings have you encountered?
*shrug*
If Superstring theory is an accurate model of the quantum universe, every matter and force particle is a manifestation of a string or a membrane. In any case, it's clear there aren't any more than three extended spatial dimensions in the universe, so you're either stuck with String theory's Planck-sized dimensions, or you're simply making it up as you go along. Unless you have some other multi-dimensional theory you'd like to share? |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 01:28:38 [Permalink]
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Phd: quote:
Pot, kettle, etc. You'll need to do better than "clever things humans do" for any of your criticism to hold.
Like I said your whistling inthe dark when it comes to the obvious but when comes to pure speculation you are the expert. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 01:33:53 [Permalink]
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Phd: quote:
Unless you have some other multi-dimensional theory you'd like to share?
Naw lets just have Slater ask his talking ape,that is if she isn't to busy discussing theology or philosophy. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 09:06:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
Like I said your whistling inthe dark when it comes to the obvious but when comes to pure speculation you are the expert.
Unbelievable. You dismiss the entirety of personality research because it's obvious? And you, yes you, can be a lay-expert in String Theory as well. Pick up a copy of Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 21:20:04 [Permalink]
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JMC said:
If God or any other being knows that tomorrow I will choose to not go to work then I am predestined to make that choice tomorrow.
If God or any other being? So if your mom knows you're not going to work, you are predestined to do it? Explain how that makes any sense whatsoever? You mean, you could not change your mind and decide to go?
Let's say God knows you are going to fall asleep at the wheel of your car next Monday afternoon at 4:56 and that you will crash into the ravine roll over 5 times and be fatally injured. God's will, however, (for argument sake, we'll say we know what it is this time) is for you not to crash, but make it home safely. God knows what you will do. He has a different plan. What to do....as if we could know His omniscience mind, but can't, but for arguments sake, we'll say God has a plan. He decides to directly intervene and sends an angel to ride with you and keep you awake by whatever means necessary. Monday comes and you're driving home from a long tiring day, exhausted. You exit the main freeway at 4:55, traveling down a wide, but unfinished freeway exit road with a 50mph limit, mentally you ease up, as you're finally out of that heavy traffic, but as you do, you begin to nod off, just as you're approaching a curve with no safety rail at 55mph. This is it, the time God knows that you would have been fatally injured, but you're not alone in your car and something causes you to bolt upright just before you head off the road! What was that! Felt like a knee in the back through my seat. But nobody's back there...or so you thought. You continue home, perplexed, amazed, and thankful. I could have been killed, you think to yourself...and so you would have, if God hadn't intervened. He had the foreknowledge. He was totally correct, yet it didn't occur. I'm throwing out one scenario for you to ponder. We know God does not always intervene.
By the way God did allot of evil deeds in the OT, he killed babies of all sorts
Am I to assume you are 'pro-life'?
, he ordered executions,
You are against the death penalty in all cases?
rapes,
Not sure where you found that.
and genocides,
It seems that way.
he killed people for all sorts of reasons.
Never for doing good, it seems.
The God of the OT is such a description of an evil being I am always under the impression that Satan is the good guy in this fiction
Guess you sort of skipped around alot and missed all the good stuff.
Amazing how we see a lot of the same evil things occuring today. Are you thinking God is responsible for all of the evil things around us? Probably not, cause you called the Bible a fiction. Well is the evil today a result of men's corruption or just what is it?
quote]Hmmm. Wonder if these writers were going by those rules.[/quote]All languages share some common features. One of those is you identify who you are talking about before refering to them with a pronoun. DA's verse (Micah 5:2) out of context leaves the next several verses talking about a "He" that is never identified.
Note, please, that the Bible wasn't written in chapter/ verse format. That is a recent addition. What we may consider to be correct paragraph format, was not, obviously, how prophets of old wrote. We see paragraphs as beginning of new thoughts. I look at my old testament books and see no paragraph indentations. Some times I see headings added by publishers, but not part of the original text. Some heading, in Psalms, however were made by the author. It would seem that yes, they did not use the same rules we use today. Some of the writings are in more of a poetic format, some are as parables, and some tell history. Some are the very words of God written down by the prophet. The same chapter may have all of these things. So, it is clear to me, that they did not use our modern rules.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 21:39:03 [Permalink]
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Is this not the same God who created us, presumably with his foreknowledge intact?
I think you are making some unspoken presumption here. Could you clarify what you believe God would or should do with His perfect foreknowledge?
If God is omnipotent, there are no actions which are any more difficult for him than any others. He doesn't have a body, so it's not like he's straining his muscles.
Again, some presumption going on here. We can't read your mind. What are you thinking He should be doing?
To interpret prophecy as God's evil manipulation of people is perverse. God doesn't sin or tempt others to sin.[/quote]
I fail to see how this relates to your defense of free will in the slightest.
Okay, you are assuming you have no choice simply because God see's what you will do. Where do you get this from logically, experimentally, or scripturally?
I guess that includes terrorizing the Israelites by hardening the Pharaoh's heart?
[/quote]
Again, a presumption that God caused Pharoah to do what he did. Because it says, God hardened his heart, does not mean it says, God made him do it. You presume they are one in the same. They are not.
Consider that opposing God's will causes the hardening of the heart, thus, "God hardened his heart" does not mean, as you seem to assume, (and many believers assume this to)that God caused him to fight against God. That's ridiculous! God isn't double minded like us. God wanted Pharoah to let the Israelites go. Pharoah didn't want them to go. In the process of persuading Pharoah, God uses more and greater judgments to move him to obey His will. God put up with his utter obstinance and showed His power in the process. Why? So He could do all these terrible things to the Eqyptians? No, so Pharoah would finally soften enough to let the Israelites go, which he did when God struck down his first born son. Such trials will either harden or soften you. You're a psychologist. Surely you realize this. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 01/25/2003 19:11:08 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 22:02:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tokyodreamer
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
He does, however, in my opinion, according to my understanding of the Bible, work very hard to persuade men to turn from evil doing and thinking and trust in Him.
See, this is where the nonsense rears its ugly head.
God knew before he created Man what each and every person would do during their lives. God knew who would be doing evil things and thinking evil thoughts. He knew who would stop doing those things, and who wouldn't. Why, oh please why, would he need to "work very hard at persuad[ing]" men to stop doing these things if he already knew who would stop and who wouldn't?!
This is where people mess up all the time in believing in "predestination". Foreknowledge doesn't automatically imply predestination of individuals. Your finally destiny is not set by the unseen hand. There are, certainly, some prophetic occurances set to happen in God's time table. That's what prophecy implies. But your life, my life is not set. We can let our hearts be softened or hardened by events in this life. We can listen to God or fight against Him. He has 'predestined' to hell all who will refuse to trust in His Son and continue sinning till death. He has not predestined who will do this. He has 'predestined' to heaven all who believe the gospel, turn from their evil ways, and follow His Son, doing His will. He has not predestined who that will be.
In a simpler, smaller fashion, God has predestined all that humble themselves to receive His unmerited help. He has also predestined to 'resist and not give grace to' all who remain proud and arrogant.
quote:
But don't you see?! God knew, bazillions and bazillions and more years ago, before humans existed, that some people would be in terrible accidents, or contract terrible diseases, but would end up "miraculously" surviving. How is this in any way seen as something worth praising, when it was known what the outcome would be, and that the people in question were never in any danger of dying or suffering from whatever their "miracle" saved them from in the first place?
Have you ever been one who miraculously survived? It's hard to think the way you do if you had.
quote:
quote:
God doesn't sin or tempt others to sin.
Oh really? Then why does he repent of doing and thinking of doing evil deeds so often in the OT? (Ex 32:14, Jer. 18:8, Jer. 42:10, Jon. 3:10)
Evil, in the context you are using means: a catastrophe, etc.
Check a concordance and word meanings at how the word evil is used. It has different meanings and different words are used in Hebrew to differentiate types of evil.
The evil you are imlying God does comes from an 'evil' heart. Corrupted by sin. God cannot do that kind of evil. He does judge. It is part of God's responsibility. When he purposes judgment and warned people, if they heed His warning, He "repents" of the "evil" or judgment He was going to bring upon them. THis is clearly seen in Jonah with the Ninevites.
{edit notes - Doomar, can you please work a bit harder at the formatting? Use the 'Preview' button to see what it will look like. - PhD} |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2003 : 12:08:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
I think you are making some unspoken presumption here. Could you clarify what you believe God would or should do with His perfect foreknowledge?
If God's foreknowledge existed prior to his creating humans, then the proposition "John F. Kennedy becomes President of the United States" was a true proposition at time T prior to the creation of humanity. That, dear Doomar, is predetermination.
quote:
PhD: If God is omnipotent, there are no actions which are any more difficult for him than any others. He doesn't have a body, so it's not like he's straining his muscles.
Again, some presumption going on here. We can't read your mind. What your you thinking He should be doing?
I was responding to your comment that God "work[s] very hard to persuade men to turn from evil doing and thinking and trust in Him." It doesn't make sense to say that an omnipotent, supernatual being "works hard" at anything. An omnipotent being can, presumably, cause a state-of-affairs to obtain through force-of-will, or some other, equivalent, non-physical action. Obviously, God sometimes fails to "persuade men to turn from evil doing..." but an omnipotent being cannot fail to do anything, by definition. Contradiction city. Haven't you been there before, Doomar?
quote:
Okay, you are assuming you have no choice simply because God see's what you will do.
Wrong. See above.
quote:
Again, a presumption that God caused Pharoah to do what he did. Because it says, God hardened his heart, does not mean it says, God made him do it. You presume they are one in the same. They are not.
Consider that opposing God's will causes the hardening of the heart, thus, "God hardened his heart" does not mean, as you seem to assume, (and many believers assume this to)that God caused him to fight against God. That's ridiculous! God isn't double minded like us. God wanted Pharoah to let the Israelites go. Pharoah didn't want them to go. In the process of persuading Pharoah, God uses more and greater judgments to move him to obey His will. God put up with his utter obstinance and showed His power in the process. Why? So He could do all these terrible things to the Eqyptians? No, so Pharoah would finally soften enough to let the Israelites go, which he did when God struck down his first born son. Such trials will either harden or soften you. You're a psychologist. Surely you realize this.
What I can also do is read, and your interpretation of the verses in question is silly. It says, multiple times and in multiple ways that God actively hardened the Pharaoh's heart. |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2003 : 19:39:48 [Permalink]
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If God is omnipotent, there are no actions which are any more difficult for him than any others. He doesn't have a body, so it's not like he's straining his muscles.
Yes, perhaps you are correct. That was not a good way to put it. I do believe these actions are perhaps a higher priority, but your right about His power being unlimited.
An omnipotent being can, presumably, cause a state-of-affairs to obtain through force-of-will, or some other, equivalent, non-physical action. Obviously, God sometimes fails to "persuade men to turn from evil doing..." but an omnipotent being cannot fail to do anything, by definition. Contradiction city. Haven't you been there before, Doomar?
Yes, I have thought about this before, PH, but your definition of failure doesn't work in this context. If God has given men a choice, i.e., "free will", then that is one of His parameters in persuasion, as not to violate that edict. He also will not violate His nature, that is, do something "evil", like tempt a man to sin. Nor will He commit acts contrary to His own will. Without understanding these basic tenents (perhaps not basic to us, but evident in the Bible), or parameters, we'll accuse God of failing, when it was men who failed and "chose poorly". Man tends to blame God because man is basically corrupt and thinks wrong about the creator. Man likes to blame others and not blame himself. That is an evident reality in life. It is abundantly clear that man has a free choice in life. The many evils deeds in the world done by men are obviously allowed by this omnipotent God. He does promise to judge all who have ever lived at the time of judgment, which is yet to come. If God judged men in "real time", there would not be too many survivors, thus, his longsuffering and patient nature are evident. His will is made clear in Peter's writing: "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Hereby is His will and our hope defined.
What I can also do is read, and your interpretation of the verses in question is silly. It says, multiple times and in multiple ways that God actively hardened the Pharaoh's heart.
In these verses Biblical scholars have difficulty and cannot agree. I must agree to disagree with you and leave this point at that.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 01/25/2003 19:43:08 |
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