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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
 Posted - 01/30/2003 : 20:50:31 [Permalink]
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Phd: quote:
In any case, the knowledge of Scripture obviously existed prior to the creation of Israel. A self-fulfilling prophecy is much
more likely.
Tell me how this could in any way be "self-fulfilling". Phd: quote:
And what do you mean by "scattered all over the world"? Are we still laboring under the pre-15th Century notion
that Europe = World? Were there Jews in China, Argentina and New Zealand that all made the arduous trek after WWII?
I don't know about "pre-15th Century notion"s but yes Jews in all those countries did make that "arduous trek". tw: quote:
The Jews didn't return to their homeland. Many did, but most are
still scattered all over the world and the largest population is
in the USA.
Sorry. Your prophecy gets an incomplete..
The operative words are their homeland Israel.The prophecy doesn't stipulate that "all the Jews" must return but that they would be a NATION once again.I don' see how anyone can deny that FACT. Prophecy FULFILLED! |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/30/2003 20:54:12 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2003 : 21:59:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
Tell me how this could in any way be "self-fulfilling".
Okay. After WWII, there were several million Jews in Europe without homes. They needed a place to go and, since none of the European countries were eager to add signficantly to their post-war populations (to be fair, they all had economy-busting rebuilds ahead of them), the Allies said, "Hey, the Bible says these folks' ancestors came from the east coast of the Mediterranean. We can just kick the dirty Arabs out and put the Jews back where they belong!" Voila. Self-fulfilling prophecy.
quote:
I don't know about "pre-15th Century notion"s but yes Jews in all those countries did make that "arduous trek."
Come on, stop being daft. Chinese Jews?? The point is, the vast majority of Jews were in US (and the vast majority remained) and Europe. Most of the original settlers of Israel were European Jews. This mass emigration story of yours is mostly fantasy.
quote:
The prophecy doesn't stipulate that "all the Jews" must return but that they would be a NATION once again.I don' see how anyone can deny that FACT.
Who's denying what fact? We're arguing with your laughable interpretation of reality.
quote:
Prophecy FULFILLED!
Heh. Fulfilled by the US and England. Or did God orchestrate the systematic murder of 6 million of his people so that the rest of them could go live in peace and harmony strife and violence in the middle of Allah-land? |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2003 : 23:01:38 [Permalink]
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Phd:quote:
Come on, stop being daft. Chinese Jews??
As this chart demonstrates there are Asian Jews.You definitely can' t see the forest for the trees. quote:
Israel Demographic Information
Capital:
Disputed. Israel claimed Jerusalem in 1950;
nearly all countries maintain their Embassies in Tel Aviv
Area:
20,770 sq. km (slightly smaller than New Jersey)
Population:
5,938,093 (July 2001 est.)
Population Growth Rate:
1.58% (2001 est.)
Infant Mortality Rate:
7.72 deaths/1,000 live births (2001 est.)
Life expectancy:
(male): 76.69 (female): 80.84
Racial/Ethnic background:
Jewish 80% (Europe/America-born 32%, Israel-born 21%, Africa-born 14.5%, Asia born
12.5%), non-Jewish 20% (mostly Arab)
The rest of your criticism merely demonstrates how foolish your are to believe anything but the TRUTH. As I already stated it was clearly predicted that the Jews would once again live in their homeland Israel.They are there and will stay there forever no one will remove them again. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/30/2003 23:05:26 |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2003 : 23:11:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
The prophecy doesn't stipulate that "all the Jews" must return but that they would be a NATION once again.I don' see how
anyone can deny that FACT.
Who's denying what fact? We're arguing with your laughable interpretation of reality.
It seems if you can't figure out "what FACT" (Israel is a Nation again as is prophesised in the Bible) then tis you "Dreamer" who really has an acute problem with interpreting "reality".(edited for ref.) quote:
Israel was built in the face of extraordinary opposition. The earliest chalutzim (pioneers) came in the 1880s, purchasing land from the
Ottoman overlords, for a dream of Zion. In the following years, political activism, formulated by Theodore Hertzl and others, laid a
foundation for making the dream of a Jewish home in Zion come true, but the reality was still distant. By the late 1930s, realizing the
dream seemed the only answer to the nightmare of the Holocaust.
Most amazing are the people who built the State. Israel's pioneers were not strong and healthy lumberjacks with rippling muscles and
abundant supplies. Israel was built by men and women who had just escaped the hell of Nazi concentration camps. These courageous
Survivors often staggered ashore, barely alive. Their bodies were thin, but their determination and courage boundless. Against
seemingly insurmountable odds, despite European opposition, American apathy, and British blockades, they were determined to
make a home in the Land.
Between 1945 and 1948, these dauntless Survivors contended against well-armed Arab opposition, British political oppression, and world opinion to secure a place
where Jews would never be subjected to genocide again. They struggled to build a home with meager supplies under constant attack. As if by a miracle, the United
Nations voted for partition and the modern State of Israel was born in May, 1948.
Ancient Prophecies Come True
Israel's 50th birthday is certainly worth celebrating. It is a modern miracle and the most important even in recent history. However, even more amazing than the
rebirth of Israel is the fact that the Hebrew prophets foretold that it would happen exactly as it did!
For hundreds of years, skeptics laughed at the thought that the Jewish people would ever return to the land of Israel. In the Middle Ages, Jewish people were
mocked for their hopes to spend "next year in Jerusalem."
The Jewish people have been divided on the ideal of a return to Zion. By the turn of the century, many Orthodox felt that political Zionism was wrong, and would not
support the Zionist goal of establishing a nation. During the early Zionist movement, the idea of the Jewish people returning to the Land was ridiculed as a political
impossibility by world powers.
The prophet Ezekiel foretold the Jewish people's return to the land of Israel after a long exile (Ezekiel 37). God is in control of world events, and he brought his
people back to the Land just as the prophets foretold.
The regathering of Israel, Ezekiel said, would occur in stages, described as a "Valley of Dry Bones." From the Jewish people's undying love for Zion through the
galut (dispersion), to the Russian Jewish settlers who bought land from the Ottomans in the 1880s, to the political activities of the 1940s, God's promise was fulfilled.
The Effects of Persecution
The Bible also foretold that Israel would be reborn through persecution. God says of Israel, through the prophet Jeremiah, "I will bring them back
into their land which I gave to their fathers" (Jeremiah 16:15). But in the next verse God says that he will use "fishermen" and "hunters" to pursue his
people back to their land. This picture of persecution has literally been fulfilled in the rebirth of Israel. The primary motivation for modern Zionism
has been anti-Semitic persecution. In the last 100 years God has used Czarist pogroms, Polish economic discrimination, Nazi genocide, Arab
hatred, and Soviet repression to drive Jewish people back to their homeland for safety. Against incredible odds, God delivered them from annihilation and brought
them back to the Land of Israel.
(http://www.chosen-people.com/docs/Curious/AboutUs2/Articles/MorningStar/LivingMiracle.html). |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/31/2003 00:23:38 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2003 : 08:27:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
As this chart demonstrates there are Asian Jews.You definitely can' t see the forest for the trees.
1. The modern demographics of Israel are really immaterial, considering we were discussing Israel immediately after its creation.
2. Asia is a pretty freaking big place. There's more to it than just China. Find me the statistics that indicate how many Chinese Jews, New Zealand Jews and Argentinian Jews made the journey back to Israel in the 1950s, then we'll talk about your "from all over the Earth" ideas.
quote:
The rest of your criticism merely demonstrates how foolish your are to believe anything but the TRUTH.
The only thing foolish is the notion that the Israel situation is somehow proof of the existential TRUTH of a 2000-year-old goatherder text.
quote:
As I already stated it was clearly predicted that the Jews would once again live in their homeland Israel.
And you have yet to show this is even a possible case of divine intervention.
quote:
They are there and will stay there forever no one will remove them again.
Except for the 6 million that were, apparently, necessarily sacrificed to ensure the fulfilled prophecy. In any case, I don't think a puny human such as yourself should be so confident about what God will or will not do with his people. 6 million souls might tell you God's not averse to offing some of them when it suits him. |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2003 : 13:46:13 [Permalink]
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Phd: quote:
1. The modern demographics of Israel are really immaterial, considering we were discussing Israel immediately after its creation.
2. Asia is a pretty freaking big place. There's more to it than just China. Find me the statistics that indicate how many Chinese Jews, New Zealand Jews and Argentinian Jews made the journey back to Israel in the 1950s, then we'll talk about your "from all over the Earth" ideas.
quote:
Get real,have you seen a mass migration of Asians to Israel in the last 30 years? Its obvious that logic of this undeniable prophetic fulfillment is just to traumatic for your materialistic presuppositions,your in denial. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/31/2003 13:48:37 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2003 : 15:44:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
Get real,have you seen a mass migration of Asians to Israel in the last 30 years? Its obvious that logic of this undeniable prophetic fulfillment is just to traumatic for your materialistic presuppositions,your in denial.
There is a fundamental flaw in your thinking. It is evidenced by the phrase "undeniable prophetic fulfullment." You have a serious problem with dogmatic argumentation, primarily because I can deny "prophetic fulfillment." I can deny it on the grounds that "self-fulfilling prophecy" is a probable naturalistic explanation. Thus, I can employ Occam's Razor to make an informed decision. |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2003 : 14:25:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
Phd: quote:
This argument ensures that God's probabilistic foreknowledge
renders him unable to instantiate anything resembling a plan.
I have a book on Biblical Prophecy written in the 1860's in which the author cites that based on various prophecies in both the Tannach and the NT that the Jews (at that time scattered all over the world)would return to their homeland Israel.That now is a historic fact so it seems the evidence is at odds with your hypothetical word games. Also that despite your scoffing God's plan is right on time.
I believe this biblical prophecy to which you are refering is Jeremiah 31:4 (if there are others, please let me know). But Amos 5:2 says that Israel will never rise again. So my question is: How can prophecy not be fulfilled if opposites are foretold? |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
| Edited by - walt fristoe on 02/01/2003 14:30:52 |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2003 : 14:42:29 [Permalink]
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God promised that Israel would reside in their homeland safely, never again to be tormented by neighboring nations. This turned out to be very much incorrect. A prophecy unfulfilled.
Ezekiel 28:24-26, 34:28-29, Amos 9:15 |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
| Edited by - walt fristoe on 02/01/2003 14:45:07 |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2003 : 16:56:31 [Permalink]
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At the time of Amos the nation was divided Judah to the south and the Northern 10 tribes known then as Israel quote:
Amos
Amos was a herdsman who lived in the village of Tekoa,
before becoming a prophet during the reign of King Uzziah.
Amos was not the first Bible prophet, but he was the first
prophet to have his prophecies recorded in a book that is
named after him.
Amos prophesied about 760 BC during the reigns of King
Uzziah of Judah, and Jeroboam II of Israel. He left Judah and
went to Israel. He had a short ministry. Amos predicted the
overthrow of Israel by the Assyrians. He and also predicted
the doom of Judah, and the doom of the surrounding nations.
In his prophecies against Israel, Amos spoke of the social sins
of the day, such as greed, corruption, false worship, and
injustice. His book ends with a scant hope that the people of
Israel would listen and heed the warnings.
The Northern kingdom was destroyed and never rebuilt. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2003 : 08:49:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by PhDreamer
quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
Logically incompatible: NOT!
Try a late Twentieth & TwentyFirst Centuries' view: Probability Theory and Stochastic Processes, wherein "Divine Foreknowledge" would see a broad spectrum (--via "Free Will"--) of possibilities, each with an associated probability of occurance.
I love apologetics. Solve one problem, create another. This argument ensures that God's probabilistic foreknowledge renders him unable to instantiate anything resembling a plan.
"...unable to [??design??] anything resembling a plan."
Yeeesss: But isn't that what Free Will implies? Why is it necessary for "foreknowledge" to demand a fixed, unchanging "plan"?? That view is, perhaps, purely "ANTHROPOCENTRISM", as our dearly beloved SHOUTER says it elsewhere.
Perhaps God, in some previous avatar/incarnation (--read, perhaps: "The Universe prior to the Universe started by the modern-day cosmologists' hypothesized Big Bung; that is, the Universe prior to our Universe"--) tried the deterministic view, (no Free Will), and didn't like it. Maybe God, in this avatar/Universe mixed in to the "Divine Plan" (--if there is such--) the idea of Free Will.
I don't see that my comment solved one problem by creating a new problem. I merely see that my comment reflected reality--under the premise that "there exists God";----without which premise, of course, your whole contention is pointless. 
(Edited to correct the word "ANTHROPOCENTRISM".)
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
| Edited by - Computer Org on 02/03/2003 11:19:42 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2003 : 09:23:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
Why is it necessary for "foreknowledge" to demand a fixed, unchanging "plan"??
Are you proposing incomplete devine foreknowledge, or inaccurate devine foreknowledge ? If you are, then are you equating devine foreknowledge with guessing ? If you have prefect devine foreknowledge, then free will is just an illusion.
http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/august97/barker.html |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2003 : 09:57:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakleyquote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
Why is it necessary for "foreknowledge" to demand a fixed, unchanging "plan"??
Are you proposing incomplete devine foreknowledge, or inaccurate devine foreknowledge ?
. . . If you have prefect devine foreknowledge, then free will is just an illusion.
No.
The foreknowledge that I am discussing is a spectrum of available actions, each with a probability of occurance: that spectrum of probabilities (--one for each available action--) is what constitutes Free Will.
"Divine", after all, means "divine",--to include allowing a certain freedom of action/decision on the part of the human/mortal individual or society. "Perfect foreknowledge", as you put it, might well mean "probabilistic foreknowledge"!
Free Will, by the way, does not mean absolute, unfettered freedom of action. For example: Try lifting yourself off of the floor while touching nothing (--such as an overhead bar). You can't--even if you do have Free Will. Divine Foreknowledge has limited your available free-actions.
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2003 : 14:14:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
At the time of Amos the nation was divided Judah to the south and the Northern 10 tribes known then as Israel quote:
Amos
Amos was a herdsman who lived in the village of Tekoa,
before becoming a prophet during the reign of King Uzziah.
Amos was not the first Bible prophet, but he was the first
prophet to have his prophecies recorded in a book that is
named after him.
Amos prophesied about 760 BC during the reigns of King
Uzziah of Judah, and Jeroboam II of Israel. He left Judah and
went to Israel. He had a short ministry. Amos predicted the
overthrow of Israel by the Assyrians. He and also predicted
the doom of Judah, and the doom of the surrounding nations.
In his prophecies against Israel, Amos spoke of the social sins
of the day, such as greed, corruption, false worship, and
injustice. His book ends with a scant hope that the people of
Israel would listen and heed the warnings.
The Northern kingdom was destroyed and never rebuilt.
So, DA, is it your contention that Amos is refering to ancient Israel
whereas Jeremiah is refering to the modern state of Israel? I don't
see how that is textually justified. |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
| Edited by - walt fristoe on 02/03/2003 14:27:31 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2003 : 15:04:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
The foreknowledge that I am discussing is a spectrum of available actions, each with a probability of occurance: that spectrum of probabilities (--one for each available action--) is what constitutes Free Will.
Then the possessor of this devine foreknowledge (who has often been described as perfect) is imperfect because it does not have perfect knowledge of the future. It knows what will happen, but doesn't know how or perhaps even why.
quote:
"Divine", after all, means "divine",--to include allowing a certain freedom of action/decision on the part of the human/mortal individual or society. "Perfect foreknowledge", as you put it, might well mean "probabilistic foreknowledge"!
Perfect or probable devine entity ?
quote:
Free Will, by the way, does not mean absolute, unfettered freedom of action. For example: Try lifting yourself off of the floor while touching nothing (--such as an overhead bar). You can't--even if you do have Free Will. Divine Foreknowledge has limited your available free-actions.
There is a naturally occuring phenomenon, often observed and easily explained, that prevents me from even considering levitation as a part of free will. I am in no way limited by devine foreknowledge. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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