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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
 Posted - 04/20/2003 : 01:12:52 [Permalink]
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| Well Gorgo, pick a side....hope its the right one. The US doesnt want other countries to follow? They are inviting other countries of the coalition to stand by and watch history unfold! |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2003 : 02:17:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Posted by Fireballin
Oh and TIm @tomic did use the term oil fields
Fireballin, you are correct. Atomic did refer to 'oil fields'. I apologize for the misunderstanding. I have no problem with protecting the oil fields as the primary means of economic support for the Iraqi people. I felt that protecting the building of the 'Oil Ministry' while ignoring crucial infrastructure was the crux of the argument. It is my fault that I did not recognize your change of direction, or my perception of a change of direction.
quote:
if it was not for the US eventually you would all be speaking Arabic.......
A very interesting claim. Could you, please, elaborate a bit. I am truly interested in what events will transpire to make us all learn to speak Arabic. Or, is this a cryptic threat insinuating that the Arabic, or Muslim world will conquer the western nations in some fashion? Honestly, I am truly interested.
quote:
Militant Islam hates Isreal and wants 1948 to be erased from history. One problem, Isreal has one powerful buddy.
Could this be the reson why we would have been speaking Arabic? If so, could you be kind enough to explain?
quote:
Three dominant ideoligies are competing, western european socialism, capilalism, and militant islam.
Competing for what? World domination, perhaps? Could you kindly refer me to references that can explain in detail this epic competition? I feel that I need to be well informed, and do not know where these spefific and limited ideologies are of any more importance than many other well known ideologies.
quote:
take away my capitalism I have a problem.
As would most of us. However, I sense some deeper and more fundamental importance to your personal view of 'capitalism'. Do you feel that your view of capitalism is somehow different, or more compelling than the general understanding of what capitalism is? Or, do you feel that just the majority of those posting to this board hold some different, or perhaps incomplete understanding of capitalism?
My intent is not to be adversarial, but to understand your belief system. To be honest, you seem to say little of content, but raise much acrimony. I can only guess as to whether you are often misunderstood, or if you take pleasure in raising so much passion in others. I am ernestly interested in what you stand for, your personal ideology and motivating factors.
I am quite sure that most of us would delight in reading about your world views. Please, feel free to start a new thread concerning your most cherished values. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2003 : 09:22:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Fireballn
Well Gorgo, pick a side....hope its the right one. The US doesnt want other countries to follow? They are inviting other countries of the coalition to stand by and watch history unfold!
Watch us embarass ourselves for posterity. The Country that Couldn't Coup Straight.
http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1048313884169&p=1012571727088
I especially liked the bit at the end from one of the former Directors General of the Iraqi Oil Ministry:
quote:
Confusion Over Who Controls Iraq's Oil Ministry Financial Times, April 20, 2003
However, he lamented the whole US approach to dealing with post-war Iraq. "We have a lot of experience with coups
d'etat and this one is the worst," he said. "Any colonel in the Iraqi army will tell you that when he does a coup
he goes to the broadcasting station with five announcements.
"The first one is long live this, down with that. The second one is your new government is this and that. The third
is the list of the people to go on retirement. The fourth one, every other official is to report back to work
tomorrow morning. The fifth is the curfew."
This is usually done within one hour, he added. "Now we are waiting more than a week and still we hear nothing from
them."
-- Henry |
- TW
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2003 : 10:03:29 [Permalink]
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| The U.S. does not want other countries to follow their criminal example. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2003 : 19:48:19 [Permalink]
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| Sorry Tim excellent questions deserve at least good answers.....havent been near a computer in a while been real busy....Ill be back! |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
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seb
New Member
France
40 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2003 : 12:38:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Stupid? I merely said I didn't understand.
That's a good point....it has been centuries, so why can't they learn to get along?
My country? I am 1st generation 'American'. My parents were born in other countries, I've never felt that close to the USA. The civil war of the USA was over 100 years ago, I was not involved. (as old as you might think I am!) However I do agree with you, people here, it seems do want things NOW. I don't like that either. They are always in a hurry. That makes me crazy!
Stupid was not the right word let assume a bad translation for that one.
You want poeple beeing at war for centuries to work together, gives them a commun ennemy. Another solution might be education but I think history showed us the first case is more commun.
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2003 : 00:05:45 [Permalink]
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I have only a few minutes for this message, and had only a minute to peruse the previous posts, so apologies for my certain misses on what has already been said. Further apologies for this being a hit-and-run post with no idea on when I might post again.
I am writing this from one of the few morale terminals set up at the CFLCC (Coalition Forces Land Component Commander) headquarters which is in a palace just north of what is now called Baghdad International Headquarters.
My workplace is in downtown Baghdad in a building next to the main Presidential Palace which I visit frequently to coordinate humanitarian actions with Jay Garner's group, the ORHA (Office for Reconstruction and Humanitarian Assistance). I work with Ambassador Barbara Bodine, among others, who works directly for Mr. Garner.
My Civil Affairs unit in the army has just assumed responsibility for civil-military operations in Bagdad and central Iraq.
First, the easy one--the museum. It was tragic but not a war crime. The Marine Commander was relieved for not protecting the museum but such actions were not yet required under the Geneva-Hague conventions in that US forces did not have positive control of the area, though we were nearby. As a side note, there is a Captain on my team who is an archeologist and has been working with the Iraqis, the British, and numerous NGOs to recover much of the items, many of which are now suspected to have been fakes anyway.
Likewise for the zoo. A Colonel, Egyptian-born but US citizen, who is a vet visits the zoos daily. Our medical teams visit the hospitals. I personally visited the teaching hospital yesterday.
So, @tomic, I'm looking you in the eye and telling you it's not about oil.
The hospitals were not targeted and have been protected. The robbery that continues now is perpetrated by Iraqi official of the now defunct Baathist party for the most part, and by opportunists and thugs for the rest. It has been greatly curtailed though not eliminated. Every hospital (I stress EVERY) in Baghdad is functional. A few are operating near the level they were prior to this war.
A few nights ago at the nightly NGO meeting (non-governmental organizations, Red Cross, UNICEF, hundreds of others) two representatives of a French NGO stood up to berate the military for its failure with the hospitals. Another member of the same organization stood up and asked them for specifics because he had heard of no such thing. The problem was that they were comparing the condition of Baghdad hospitals to Western hospitals rather than to themselves prior to the war.
Supplies are an issue being resolved, but patients are being treated. A US military hospital treats Iraqis daily for injuries unrelated to the war. We transport them and their families at no cost over many miles to hospitals when we are able and they are ready. They have power because they have generators that are kept fueled. The biggest shortage is emergency room supplies which were looted by Iraqis prior to the US moving into Baghdad.
The Ministry of Oil was protected no more nor less than the others. I was at the Ministry of Justice when the first meetings were held with Iraqi judges and lawyers in an attempt to reestablish their judiciary and criminal systems. We protected the Office of Property Records across the river so that we and the Iraqis can scour the records to determine rightful owners of property both antebellum and anteSaddam.
I conducted an assessment of the University of Baghdad three days ago. I had to pass through a US military checkpoint to reach it because we are guarding it. Much of the glass is blown out and about 3 offices were looted by departing officials, but the rest is operational. Students were living at one of the colleges and attempting to learn. The very impressive 5 million book central library at the UofB was evacuated prior to the war to undisclosed warehouses by the Iraqis. We are attempting to locate those warehouses to return the books. The UN Literature repository there was left and remains intact as does the entire card catalog.
My personal job? I am the Education Officer responsible for coordinating and facilitating the reestablishment of the Iraqi education system for Baghdad mostly and central Iraq to a lesser degree, with the exception of a few select institutions which are being handled directly by Garner's close-in group. I've personally assessed about 10 schools so far, out of about 2200 in Baghdad. 9 were structurally sound with no war damage; 1 was badly damaged but had been used as a munitions repository, which is a war crime and which, according to the Laws of Land Warfare, made the school a legitimate target. Units whose efforts I have now begun coordinating have assessed approximately 250 other schools with similar findings.
The major issues:
Sporadic electricity, but this is the same as before the war except that the blackouts were scheduled then and are random now; Iraqi engineers have been asked to set up a schedule.
Dirty classrooms. There is some broken glass and a lot of dirt. The teachers are waiting for us to send them cleaning crews. We tell them, very politely, that things might be expedited if they would pick up brooms themselves.
Water. Some schools have water. Many have only a partial restoration. Some have none.
UXO (unexploded ordnance): Where it is reported, we remove it. So far, everything removed from schools has been Iraqi and not coalition.
Fuel, in the form of propane (for heating and cooking) and gasoline for vehicles. The problem is storage. I am not an expert on this but can reiterate what was explained at our updates and to the NGOs. The processing of the petroleum for gasoline and propane leaves a larger byproduct of fuel oil. This fuel oil is taking up the available storage space so that while there is enough petroleum to process more gasoline and propane, it can't be done because there would be no place to put the fuel oil. In the meantime, the US military and UK military provide military grade gasoline and diesel (I don't know about propane yet) to critical Iraqi facilities. Military grade is far higher than the grade normally used here.
---
To change focus a bit, @tomic, you would be hard pressed to find a pro-Saddam Baghdadian. Except for the Baathists, you won't find any pro-Saddam people in Iraq. Even the Shiites in the south, who dislike the US a lot (but who nonetheless displayed immense gratitude as we passed through their territory) hate Saddam.
I cannot count the number of men and women who have approached me (kids, too) thanking me and telling me horror stories about Saddam. One merchant almost cried when I listened to his concerns and spent 45 minutes with him, without an appointment. He said I am too important. A Major in the army does not have respect for men such as he. He told stories of having appointments and waiting for hours and being sent home and repeating the process and then being yelled at for not being there the first time.
I could go on.
We're not perfect. We're not totally altruistic.
We didn't stay for the oil last time. It would have been much cheaper and easier to have simply cut a deal for the oil this time. Europe is more reliant on Iraqi oil than the US.
So if you look me in the eye and tell me this is about oil, I'll tell you with quite a bit of authority, that you have no idea what you're talking about.
You're still welcome to that cookout when I get home, though.
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My kids still love me. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2003 : 02:20:29 [Permalink]
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| You didn't say what it was about. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2003 : 03:48:29 [Permalink]
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Once again, international law applies to only those the U.S. decides.
Don't mind @tomic, he's into conspiracy theories. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2003 : 12:45:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
So if you look me in the eye and tell me this is about oil, I'll tell you with quite a bit of authority, that you have no idea what you're talking about.
So why are you or any Americans in Iraq at all?
Stumbled on any WMD's lately?
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2003 : 13:16:18 [Permalink]
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| It isn't just WMD's. To attack another country, if one cares about international law, one has to be under the threat of imminent attack. We have found that neither Afghanistan nor Iraq nor Panama nor the former Yugoslavia were a threat to anyone outside of those countries. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2003 : 14:44:37 [Permalink]
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Garrette says,
quote:
The major issues:
Funny I thought one of the major issues if not the biggest would be those things we call collateral damage. The couple of facts that make the U.S. actions criminial (in light of internaional war crimes) include:
1. Attacking a soverign nation without UN approval nor in self-defense.
2. The attack resulted in the needless death of how many Iraqi civilians? How many children, women, and men? 100's, 1000's? I don't know, but 1 is too many.
What are the reasons behind this attack? I really don't know. Possibilities include:
1. Wagging the dog to distract from political disaster at home and failed attempts to catch Osama. If this isn't one of the reasons then it sure is turning out to be a nice side effect for old Dubya.
2. A religious agenda of trying to forcefully fulfill Biblical prophecy. This one scares me more and more every day.
3. Oil or other monatary gains, I am kind of doubtful on this one, although I am sure there are some nice side benefits already being addressed such as huge government contracts for Halbertan among others.
4. Revenge for Daddy. Kind of too pyscho for me, but a possible nice side benefit.
5. Protect our nation for the threat of WMD's and from Iraq in general and from terrorists. Since there is absolutely no evidence of any kind to back this one up, I think it can be striken as a possible reason.
6. Free the Iraqi people from the evil reign of Saddam. This sounds nice and all, but as has been seen numerous times democracy cannot be forced on anyone and fails when tried. We have no guarantees that a more evil regime will take over in the region including a fundamentalists Islamic government. We also are hypocrites of the highest order as we supported Saddam during his darkest deeds of gassing Kurds. Finally what about those collateral damage things called innocent people? Are they free too?
So from the evidence at hand I would have to say #1 & #2 are the most likely reasons with #3 and #4 as nice side benefits for this whole affair. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2003 : 16:54:52 [Permalink]
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The thing about WMD's is that this was put forth as our reason for invading Iraq in the first place. Later on we see that all evidence that Saddam had or was trying to acquire WMD's were forgeries or outright lies.
Now that we have control of Iraq we treat it very differently than say Afghanistan where we promised to rebuild them and create a democracy only to abandon that plan in favor of an immediate attack on Iraq.
We have the oil fields but no Saddam, no Ossama and no democracy.
Bush has already demanded that the UN get rid of sanctions so that oil can be sold yet the sanctions, which the US set up, specified that the UN declares there are no WMD's in Iraq.
Yet they won't allow the inspectors in to gather the data that could lead to this. True brilliance at work.
But anyway...I just see so much importance placed on protecting oil, producing oil and lifting sanctions so that oil can be sold that it all seems more than a little fishy.
I also have to mention that while you don't find many Saddam supporters in Bagdad, you also don't dind many lovers of America. Americans did impose sancions that crippled Iraq for 12 years and we bombed them brutally over 12 years which has made us enemy #2 right after Saddam to many Iraqis.
It's more than a bit unfair to bring up how unpopular Saddam is in a way that is supposed to imply that we are loved. But we aren't beloved over there are we?
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2003 : 17:23:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Garrette
First, the easy one--the museum. It was tragic but not a war crime. The Marine Commander was relieved for not protecting the museum but such actions were not yet required under the Geneva-Hague conventions in that US forces did not have positive control of the area, though we were nearby. As a side note, there is a Captain on my team who is an archeologist and has been working with the Iraqis, the British, and numerous NGOs to recover much of the items, many of which are now suspected to have been fakes anyway.
To be sure, the looting of the Iraq museum wasn't a "war crime," but I'm not sure that's the point. The question is why didn't the various war planners do so little to prevent thise tragedy-- especially when they knew it was a possiblility? One also wonders why these officials took such a dismissive tact when addressing the problem after the fact. To brush off the loss of such an amazing cultural heritage with a "boys will be boys" attitude is insulting. No, these events require a greater and more thoughtful explaination that that.
And then, I question you "archaeologist" Captain's assessment of the situation. As someone in the field, I know of no military officer who doubles as a serious field archaeologist. In addition, I've heard nothing for any other source that says that much of the looted material was fake.
Read the major excavation publications. They aren't digging up and publishing fakes-- those are real artifacts. Worth real money. And now they're gone.
I'm sure the military is doing many good things in Iraw, and I'm happy the country was liberated, but please spare me the down-talking regarding the museum and its looting. |
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