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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
 Posted - 04/26/2003 : 10:27:13
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Games, not school, are teaching kids to think: High Score Education
I've been saying this for awhile, but no one believed me. 
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"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
 Posted - 04/26/2003 : 10:43:38 [Permalink]
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Nothing too new in this idea: I learned to count by using number-groups ("Need 5: There's 2 spaces and there's 3 spaces...."  ) playing my Mother in Parchesee and Canasta and how to conive and crook playing my friends in Monopoly.
Now then: I've played DooM.x, Quake.x, Heretic.x, Hexen.x, Warcraft.x, Heroes.x, and others and so am not knocking Video Games but . . . . . Wouldn't it be great if there were VideoGames as much fun as the FPS "Kill-them-Dead's" but which educated as well as did Parchesee, Canasta, and Monopoly? |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2003 : 18:50:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
Nothing too new in this idea: I learned to count by using number-groups ("Need 5: There's 2 spaces and there's 3 spaces...." ) playing my Mother in Parchesee and Canasta and how to conive and crook playing my friends in Monopoly.
Now then: I've played DooM.x, Quake.x, Heretic.x, Hexen.x, Warcraft.x, Heroes.x, and others and so am not knocking Video Games but . . . . . Wouldn't it be great if there were VideoGames as much fun as the FPS "Kill-them-Dead's" but which educated as well as did Parchesee, Canasta, and Monopoly?
Nothing wrong with games of any sort. I don't know for sure but I would think computer games are good for hand/eye cordination just as when I was a volunteer in my kids kindergarden class and the teacher told me to go out side and throw the ball with them and run through tires on the ground, for their gross motor skills. I object to sports figures making so much money and possibly sending a message to kids that they don't have to study academics to live in this world. Not just memorizing but knowing and understanding facts and history.
Along with games/sports, schools should not be eliminating art either. Music and fine art are more ways to learn many things beyond the subject matter. Counting and science for example, and observation and reasoning IMO. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2003 : 23:09:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Snake: Along with games/sports, schools should not be eliminating art either. Music and fine art are more ways to learn many things beyond the subject matter. Counting and science for example, and observation and reasoning IMO.
So, when was the last time you voted for a school bond? You just can't have it both ways, eh?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2003 : 23:45:20 [Permalink]
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I've voted at every local election...But, that's me!
I think any idiot can fogure out that we all learn better if we actually enjoy the education. Problem is, most people hit adulthood and forget how to think. I'm all for making 'Critical Thinking' a requirement in the 6th grade. That's about the time we start letting our personal opinions get in the way of common sense. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2003 : 00:14:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
So, when was the last time you voted for a school bond? You just can't have it both ways, eh?
As you may have remembered me say I haven't voted for any bonds that require a raise in taxes or fees, or that you know me so well you know I wouldn't vote for them. Because......the money IS there, we don't need any more damn taxes. We NEED the polititians to spend it more wisely and LESS wastefull.
That (wastefull spending) wouldn't bother me as much even when those stupid bonds do pass, no thanks to my NO vote, but we see NO results for the money they take from us. 30 years now I've never missed voting in an election, 30 years I've seen no improvments in any city service let alone schools. Kil, you have to admit the school board here is a bunch of asshole dummies concerned only about political correctness, save for one outspoken soul.
Before I vote for giving them anymore of MY money to throw away I want to see something.....anything better than what we have now.
One word 'Belmont', now tell me I'm wrong! |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2003 : 09:12:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Snake: That (wastefull spending) wouldn't bother me as much even when those stupid bonds do pass, no thanks to my NO vote, but we see NO results for the money they take from us. 30 years now I've never missed voting in an election, 30 years I've seen no improvments in any city service let alone schools.
Gee. Me either. Things seem to have just gotten worse and worse ever since Prop. 13 passed all those years ago. Just what the critics predicted would happen. Bet I can guess how your vote went on that one.
By the way, I'm getting a little tired of hearing about how all the money is misspent. What money? You say there is plenty of it to fund the schools. Could you please provide me with the figures and how you arrived at that conclusion?
The following is from Edsource Online. A Primer on School Finance. It concludes:
quote:
Twenty-five years ago, local school boards had some control over local revenues. But now, decisions about how much money to allocate to education, and how to do it, are centralized in Sacramento. These decision are made within the constitutional requirements of Proposition 13 and of Proposition 98, the minimum funding guarantee for kindergarten through community college. The money is accompanied by state and federal laws, rules, regulations, and court decisions that constrain school district expenditures. Contracts with employee groups further affect spending flexibility.
Charter schools are an exception to centralized governance. Nearly 140 of these publicly-funded schools were formed in California as of 1998. They are exempt from many Education and Government Code laws and regulations.
In 1998, nearly six million students attended public schools in California, at an annual cost of about $38 billion. Yet this state spent about a thousand dollars less per pupil that year than the national average and just over half as much as New Jersey, for example, despite the fact that per capita personal income and personal income per enrolled student is well above average. The huge expenditure discrepancy, a continuing surge in school enrollments, and the impact of state-level decision making increase the difficulty of ensuring that financial support to schools is equitable- and adequate.
Here is a breakdown of how our schools are funded:
http://www.edsource.org/pub_edfct_schfin.cfm
Enjoy.
Now, this was before the current fiscal crisis in California. The Feds have made things worse by initiating new guidelines on education which caused the price per student to go up, while at the same time reducing federal funding for education. We have Bush, the education president to thank for this.
You can blame the school boards all you like. But their hands are tied. Most of the current problems can be traced back to a certain taxpayers revolt.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2003 : 10:10:15 [Permalink]
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And the moral of this story, ladies and gentlemen, is this: If you want a good education, play a lot and leave California.
Then once you're smart you can move back, eh? (I'm still in the first step, trying to graduate to phase II) |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2003 : 16:59:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
And the moral of this story, ladies and gentlemen, is this: If you want a good education, play a lot and leave California.
Then once you're smart you can move back, eh? (I'm still in the first step, trying to graduate to phase II)
That's exactly right. Who ever said education should be free. Perhaps if people stopped having so many children and or moving to this state to take advantage of all that's 'free', we wouldn't be in the situation of having to pay so much tax or have poor quality schools. Ok, so people can have as many kids as they want, fine! Still, who said WE have to pay to educate them? Let them pay for their own damn brats. If people are going to have kids, they should be responsable for them. If they can't afford shcooling, then let them work at 'McDonalds'. Ok, not McDonalds, they wouldn't know how to count, unless they played video games or cards, so they could be cleaning ladies. Doesn't take much to push a broom.
As far as Prop 13, Kil, it enabled me to buy my 1st house thereby giving me the possiblity to get into the middle class economy and save for the future. If you lived in a house you'd be thankful that your taxes aren't going up year after year with no way of knowing if you could afford them each time. Perhaps you don't realize, as a renter, you still pay property tax, so you'd be paying more too with your rent money.
13 didn't stop anything, it was supposed to make the system more accountable. Don't worry, they raised taxes.....er, ah, I mean 'fees', for various services. I do believe the money is there and they should spend it more wisely.
I don't have any web sites or paper facts or statistics about what money the government has or doesn't have. I don't need them, I can see for myself. Of all the schools I've been to as a student and a volunteer for my kids schools I've seem the waste for myself. I see ALL the waste in government. Here's an example, that I think could easily be fixed and probably represents many of the things that are wrong (in government):
Have you ever driven along the freeway and seen the sprinklers going? In the winter, in the rain! Why don't they do something to stop that waste?
One school princapal that I knew was 'on top of' everything in his school, even had the teachers count how much paper they put through the copy machine.(I'm pretty sure he wasn't Jewish either ) Now there's someone I'd like to see in charage of govenment spending.
ps. the point being, he was the only person in all the schools that I saw at least try to be econmical and was aware of the bugget. I don't think most others are....because it's 'Not Their Money'! |
| Edited by - Snake on 04/27/2003 17:06:44 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2003 : 22:23:33 [Permalink]
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Well, Snake, I should probably leave this alone. It is so remarkably wrong headed that it took my breath away.
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Who ever said education should be free.
Our federal government. And every government in the free world and most in the not so free world.
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Perhaps if people stopped having so many children and or moving to this state to take advantage of all that's 'free', we wouldn't be in the situation of having to pay so much tax or have poor quality schools.
Guess what. Education is free in the states they came from. Probably a better education as well. Exactly who are you referring to when you speak of those who are "having so many children?"
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Let them pay for their own damn brats. If people are going to have kids, they should be responsable for them. If they can't afford shcooling, then let them work at 'McDonalds'. Ok, not McDonalds, they wouldn't know how to count, unless they played video games or cards, so they could be cleaning ladies. Doesn't take much to push a broom.
Nice.
quote:
As far as Prop 13, Kil, it enabled me to buy my 1st house thereby giving me the possiblity to get into the middle class economy and save for the future. If you lived in a house you'd be thankful that your taxes aren't going up year after year with no way of knowing if you could afford them each time. Perhaps you don't realize, as a renter, you still pay property tax, so you'd be paying more too with your rent money.13 didn't stop anything, it was supposed to make the system more accountable. Don't worry, they raised taxes.....er, ah, I mean 'fees', for various services. I dobelieve the money is there and they should spend it more wisely.
You made that trade off. Prop 13 has nearly devistated the schools. It was a bad law, poorly written. Maybe it helps to believe that the money is there so you will not have to feel guilty about the damage it has done. But the fact is the money is not there. Did you even look at the figures? My guess is that the facts on this are of little interest to you.
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I don't have any web sites or paper facts or statistics about what money the government has or doesn't have. I don't need them, I can see for myself.
This is a skeptic site. You made a claim. You are now obligated to back it up. Screw your feelings and your anecdotal evidence. That doesn't fly here. What you can see for yourself means absolutely nothing. Zero. Zip. Put up or shut up.
quote:
Of all the schools I've been to as a student and a volunteer for my kids schools I've seem the waste for myself. I see ALL the waste in government. Here's an example, that I think could easily be fixed and probably represents many of the things that are wrong (in government):
Have you ever driven along the freeway and seen the sprinklers going? In the winter, in the rain ! Why don't they do something to stop that waste?
Please tell me that your kidding. Your wrong by the way. The sprinklers go on less in the winter even though this is a desert. And you think for the few days it rains here a year we should have people from the DWP running around turning off the sprinklers? Again, please tell me your kidding...
quote:
One school princapal that I knew was 'on top of' everything in his school, even had the teachers count how much paper they put through the copy machine.(I'm pretty sure he wasn't Jewish either ) Now there's someone I'd like to see in charage of govenment spending.
I have an idea. Why not only elect or hire Jews to run things.
quote:
the point being, he was the only person in all the schools that I saw at least try to be econmical and was aware of the bugget. I don't think most others are....because it's 'Not Their Money'!
Most teachers have to buy many of the supplies they use in class because there isn't enough money in the budget to pay for them. That includes books, paper and many other educational materials. I know. Because I take an LA Unified teacher to the store to buy them for her kids. There is no reimbursement. I know because we are frigging paying for them. You have no idea of what you are talking about. This last thing was so utterly wrong that it boggles the mind.
Don't even bother responding to this post without support to back up your claims. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2003 : 10:15:03 [Permalink]
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I wonder what happened to the lottery money that was supposed to go to the schools? Shouldn't that be supplying hundreds of millions of dollars? Or is it just lining the pockets of people who are already filthy rich?  |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2003 : 13:06:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
walt fristoe: I wonder what happened to the lottery money that was supposed to go to the schools?
It funds about 2% of the school budget. The lottery was sold to the voters as funding for the schools but the fine print said otherwise. I voted against it. The voters were scammed... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2003 : 15:06:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
The voters were scammed...
Yeah, so what's new?
I truly believe that's exactly why Americans are not taught how to think; if they could think critically, they'd be much harder to scam! Now, I'm usually leary of conspiracy theories, but this is one I tend to give credence to: the American education system has been the victem of systematic corporate/religious/governmental undermining for many decades, in just such a way as to maintain the illusion of competence. I can see no other persuasive explanation of "why Johnny can't read", or, more importantly, why Johnny can't think.  |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2003 : 00:26:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by walt fristoe
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
The voters were scammed...
Yeah, so what's new?
I truly believe that's exactly why Americans are not taught how to think; if they could think critically, they'd be much harder to scam! Now, I'm usually leary of conspiracy theories, but this is one I tend to give credence to: the American education system has been the victem of systematic corporate/religious/governmental undermining for many decades, in just such a way as to maintain the illusion of competence. I can see no other persuasive explanation of "why Johnny can't read", or, more importantly, why Johnny can't think.
You have a great point there Walt, I also have had those thoughts.
That's why I say the education system was much better when it was not part of the government. Something we should perhaps try to go back to! But of course once the government gets into the picture there's no going back.
Kil.....You say this is a skeptic site....well, I don't believe in manipulated statistics and slanted facts, I am not interested in reading them or trying to present, I believe what I see. I don't care what anyone wants to believe and use as evidence. I see waste and I see how it could/should be improved. I gave my opinion on how I think things should be changed (from what I've witnessed), which doesn't need any back up.
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chainsaw
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2003 : 08:15:05 [Permalink]
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I think the folks that complain about government waste and taxes have no concept of reality. Institutions don't waste, people waste. Don't tell me that Snake is 100% efficient 100% of the time.
I'm reminded of the right wing guy on the radio here in Atlanta with the "government waste of the day" piece. Of course we can find examples of government waste because it is public information. I work for a Fortune 20 company and believe me, there is tremendous waste here. But we keep it private. Bet our stock price would double if we could eliminate it. So who's kidding who?
If Snake is having problems making ends meet, I suggest that he go out and get a better paying job instead of belling aching about something absurd and advocating eliminating something that has given so much to so many.
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You can "believe" what you want, but you do have to get your science right or you'll flunk science. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2003 : 11:16:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Snake: That's why I say the education system was much better when it was not part of the government. Something we should perhaps try to go back to! But of course once the government gets into the picture there's no going back.
Just how far back did you want to go? I'll give you a clue. Government has been involved in education since long before you existed. Or are you referring to the time when there was no educational system? Of course, an educational system also implies a government to oversee it.
I'm not sure but I think you may be suffering from false memory syndrome. That's when you remember things that never happened. Like claiming that you were abducted by aliens, which, compared to your claims, is a far more benign form of the disease.
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Kil.....You say this is a skeptic site....well, I don't believe in manipulated statistics and slanted facts, I am not interested in reading them or trying to present, I believe what I see.
I don't care what anyone wants to believe and use as evidence.
All I did was provide a link to a breakdown of what money goes to education. That you will not even look at those figures is only evidence of your closed mindedness. Your argument is exactly the argument a person defending new earth creationism might use. They reject any evidence that doesn't agree with their belief. They call it slanted too. Interestingly, you are the first in line to ridicule them for not presenting a coherent argument to defend their faith. In fact, you call them stupid. I don't even do that. Hmmmmm.....
quote:
I see waste and I see how it could/should be improved. I gave my opinion on how I think things should be changed (from what I've witnessed), which doesn't need any back up.
Your opinions about how things should be changed came with claims about how things are. If your claims about how things are cannot be backed up, then your opinions are meaningless. It follows.
Of course, you are free to defend your faith no matter how nonsensical it is. And, I'm free to call you on it....
By the way, it might be about time for you learn what skepticism is about and how to think critically. Obviously, being an atheist has not taught you either of those things. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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