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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
 Posted - 04/29/2003 : 17:05:57 [Permalink]
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Yeah, well, we can bicker away at each other, or we can figure out a way to solve the problem. I know bickering is fun, I've done a bit of it myself; but Johnny still can't think!  |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2003 : 17:55:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
walt fristoe: Yeah, well, we can bicker away at each other, or we can figure out a way to solve the problem. I know bickering is fun, I've done a bit of it myself; but Johnny still can't think!
Well, yes. But in order to solve it, the problem has to be identified. That is one of the points I have been trying to make all along. Ranting may feel good but, all in all, it means nothing and it solves nothing.
Everyone has an opinion. But, like everything ells that we as skeptics hold dear, opinions are only as good as the evidence they are based on. To that end I have been trying to elevate this conversation.
I am probably spitting into the wind with Snake. But as a friend (go figure) I hope I can be excused for trying... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2003 : 23:58:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Well, Snake, I should probably leave this alone. It is so remarkably wrong headed
Wrong headed? What, is that some kind of polititcal term for when someone doesn't agree with anothers point of view?
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Guess what. Education is free in the states they came from. Probably a better education as well.
Yeah, now it's probably better but it didn't used to be.
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Exactly who are you referring to when you speak of those who are "having so many children?"
Religious people who don't believe in conception control.
And I'd like to take this opportunity to add, all those aliens who don't belong here and can't speak English, they need to leave. There's a lot of money being wasted on bilingual education too. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2003 : 00:07:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chainsaw
I think the folks that complain about government waste and taxes have no concept of reality. Institutions don't waste, people waste. Don't tell me that Snake is 100% efficient 100% of the time.
Of course there are times when one can't be 100% but over all, I personaly try as hard as I can to get the best value for my money. Do I need to go into my daily life and tell you how I don't flush my toilet? And Kil knows I don't have heat in my house. I'm sure you don't want a long list of other things I do and don't do to conserve.
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If Snake is having problems making ends meet, I suggest that he go out and get a better paying job instead of belling aching about something absurd and advocating eliminating something that has given so much to so many.
I could do very well with the money we have IF the government wouldn't take so much away.
When I did work for a big company I never took overtime because the little extra money wasn't worth the amount of tax taken out. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2003 : 00:25:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
All I did was provide a link to a breakdown of what money goes to education. That you will not even look at those figures is only evidence of your closed mindedness.
I can't spend a lot of time going on web sites because I'm trying to save money, for one thing. Thank you for telling me where my money is going but I see for myself everytime I get a property tax statement.
quote:
Your opinions about how things should be changed came with claims about how things are. If your claims about how things are cannot be backed up, then your opinions are meaningless.
As I said, I see things that are happening around my community. Shall I document them for you and send you a list?
This reminds me of the time you said crime was going down. There were some news reports or stitistics or something. And I said I see crime in my area but you insisted because of what you read they were down. Then a few weeks or was it a month or two, sure enough, big headline...crime in the Valley up. I know what I see. BTW, although I don't watch or read the news often I do glance at the paper and there are many articles about how the government is screwing the people. I'll save them for you.
Everyday there's something. Todays news, April 30, 2003, Daily News, page 3, 1st section:
Overbilling adds to county budget woes..Contract fraud suspected.
There, that's where I get my 'opinions', that the government is incompetent. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2003 : 00:38:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by walt fristoe
Yeah, well, we can bicker away at each other, or we can figure out a way to solve the problem. I know bickering is fun, I've done a bit of it myself; but Johnny still can't think!
There's the realistic and the ideal, the forrest and the trees.
I have tried, maybe not so much to 'solve' the problem but in my own community I've tried to help make some difference. I've been a volunteer at the schools, and if Kil will remember, I've talked about working with the police in various capacities, among other civic activities for many years. Solving is another thing, that takes everyone. And as we know, it's difficult to get people to even go vote. |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2003 : 06:56:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
Nothing too new in this idea: I learned to count by using number-groups ("Need 5: There's 2 spaces and there's 3 spaces...."  ) playing my Mother in Parchesee and Canasta and how to conive and crook playing my friends in Monopoly.
Now then: I've played DooM.x, Quake.x, Heretic.x, Hexen.x, Warcraft.x, Heroes.x, and others and so am not knocking Video Games but . . . . . Wouldn't it be great if there were VideoGames as much fun as the FPS "Kill-them-Dead's" but which educated as well as did Parchesee, Canasta, and Monopoly?
Nothing wrong with games of any sort. I don't know for sure but I would think computer games are good for hand/eye cordination just as when I was a volunteer in my kids kindergarden class and the teacher told me to go out side and throw the ball with them and run through tires on the ground, for their gross motor skills. I object to sports figures making so much money and possibly sending a message to kids that they don't have to study academics to live in this world. Not just memorizing but knowing and understanding facts and history.
Along with games/sports, schools should not be eliminating art either. Music and fine art are more ways to learn many things beyond the subject matter. Counting and science for example, and observation and reasoning IMO.
I have to admit that my hand/eye coordination skills are marginal and playing computer-games didn't improve them much.
Starting with the id game right before DooM, "modern" computer games were designed more as analytical processes---you get plenty of action but tactics, and even strategy, are much more important than the ability to quickly point-and-shoot. It's this aspect of computer gaming that made me think of gaming-style software as an adjunct (--or even a replacement!--) for fat-cating, marginally subject-matter-competent teachers.
I admit that my view is not a popular one nor a widespread one. Nonetheless, with school budgets skyrocketing and the tax-base threatening to shrivel, this might be the time to add interesting software platforms as a teaching-resource.
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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WindupAtheist
New Member
41 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2003 : 09:11:07 [Permalink]
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Hi! I'm not really a participant in this thread, I'm just here to give an outside opinion: Snake, you're getting your fucking ass kicked in this debate. It's really funny.
"Hard facts? I don't have any! I don't need it! What, you do have some? Well they're all SLANTED so I won't read them!"
You sound like a creationist. Seriously. Not really knowing who you are, when I clicked the "Curious Creations" link at the bottom of your post, I expected to find some evolution-bashing. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2003 : 13:33:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Snake: And I'd like to take this opportunity to add, all those aliens who don't belong here and can't speak English, they need to leave. There's a lot of money being wasted on bilingual education too.
I haven't had the time but I need to get back to this one. Bilingual education is not being done in California anymore. Voters like you took that away. I'm surprised you don't remember that. As for "all those aliens," they are the bedrock of our economy. They do the labor that no one ells wants to do. Take them away and the cost for housing and, well, everything ells goes up. Again, you don't know what your talking about. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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rickm
Skeptic Friend
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2003 : 18:55:42 [Permalink]
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"They do the labor that no one ells wants to do. Take them away and the cost for housing and, well, everything ells goes up." Kil.
Would that labor be cheap labor, would people be taking advantage of thes minorities. This in my oppinion is not right. People deserve a fair wage for the work they do, irregardless of their race or education.
Where I come from all trades are government controlled, tradespeople need a license to perform the tasks of their respective trades. This does drive the price of building up, however people are getting in most cases a fair wage. In my trade I had a five year apprenticeship followed by an exam, that required a 60% average to pass, above 70% gave you an interprovincial license, meaning you were qualified to work anywhere in Canada. Of course you could do the test as many times as required for a small fee, the first one is free.
As for teaching a second language, what exactly is the down side to knowing two languages, I was raised to speak two languages and have benefited from it. When you actually teach someone something such as a second language I would not consider it wasted. |
How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter?
-- Woody Allen, Without Feathers, 1975 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2003 : 23:36:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Kil: They do the labor that no one ells wants to do. Take them away and the cost for housing and, well, everything ells goes up.
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rickm:
Would that labor be cheap labor, would people be taking advantage of these minorities. This in my oppinion is not right. People deserve a fair wage for the work they do, irregardless of their race or education.
Good point. But that is the way the California economy works. People cross the border for jobs. Some of them become legal, learn a trade or what have you and stay. Others are here for day work. It's all well and good to be against exploiting illegal aliens. But they are a fact of life here. Also, who said they don't earn a living wage? When I need a laborer, which is hardly ever, I pay about $100 dollars a day. That is way more than minimum wage. And these people are willing to do the jobs required. There is no other labor pool to turn to.
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rickm:
As for teaching a second language, what exactly is the down side to knowing two languages, I was raised to speak two languages and have benefited from it. When you actually teach someone something such as a second language I would not consider it wasted.
I agree. What Snake is against is teaching small children in the only language they know. Bilingual education taught Spanish speaking children in Spanish and English. A good thing if they were to keep up with the English speaking children in academics. Taking that away put Spanish speaking children at a great disadvantage. And I don't think it saved any money to do that. Plain bigotry was the motive, though you will never hear any of the people who voted out bilingual education admit that...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2003 : 00:04:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by WindupAtheist
Hi! I'm not really a participant in this thread, I'm just here to give an outside opinion: Snake, you're getting your fucking ass kicked in this debate. It's really funny.
"Hard facts? I don't have any! I don't need it! What, you do have some? Well they're all SLANTED so I won't read them!"
You sound like a creationist. Seriously. Not really knowing who you are, when I clicked the "Curious Creations" link at the bottom of your post, I expected to find some evolution-bashing.
IMO, you lack experience and not knowing YOU that's what I 'hear' in your post. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2003 : 00:09:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Voters like you took that away.
Oh, thank goodness. I didn't know, my boy is out of high school now.
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As for "all those aliens," they are the bedrock of our economy. They do the labor that no one ells wants to do. Take them away and the cost for housing and, well, everything ells goes up. Again, you don't know what your talking about.
There are very debatable issues about that. If you think I don't know what I'm talking about then you have agruments with a lot of people in this state. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2003 : 00:34:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by rickm
As for teaching a second language, what exactly is the down side to knowing two languages, I was raised to speak two languages and have benefited from it. When you actually teach someone something such as a second language I would not consider it wasted.
Rick, there is no down side to knowing other languages, I myself have studied several. In learning a language one gets to know the art and culture of other places also, that's nice.
The point here was that teachers time is taken away from all other students to help kids when they should already know the lessons.
There was a time, many years ago when people would come here from other countries and be put in a classroom with not much extra help. Kids are able to catch on to things quickly.
When they are taught in their own language it holds them back from assimilating.
So when you ask about learning another language, in a way, in reverse you hit apon the correct answer. But to really answer your question, you are talking about a different situation.
Another point I'd like to make is that it also makes the kids less comfident to be singled out I think. More afraid to venture out to another level.....making friends outside their own group for example.
The kids I know who speak a foreign language do so in the home but are very bilingual otherwise. They need no extra help when they reach school age. I don't see why other kids can't do the same or does it mean they are too stupid? My spouse is fluent in English, he learned before he came here and when he goes to vote, the ballot is not in his native language as it is for so many people from other countries. When he got his US citizenship the rule was one had to know English, history and government of this country and be in good health. I resent that we have to waste tax money to print ballots and notices (in the schools) and driving booklets, etc., in so many languages when people don't follow the rules.
When you 'baby' people, they won't try to learn and help themselves. |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2003 : 07:17:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
IMO, you lack experience and not knowing YOU that's what I 'hear' in your post.
Awww, Snake. I was being polite, not wanting to get in between you and Kil. But: Hear, hear! Your bickering is, if anything, the hijack of this thread. (  )
My original post was the second one to the thread and was directly addressing the topic. But you never even responded to my just-posted response to your much-earlier comment-----choosing, it seems, to prefer bickering over substance. 
As to "lack of experience", I admit that I've never taught in elementary or high school but I have taught in two different colleges (one an Army college and one a "Big 10" university).
About 16 years ago when I decided to run for public office ("Put up or shut up."), I first tried the local "Board of Education" and when that didn't seem right, I ran for the Legislature with my main platform-plank being Education.
Well, anyway, I tried.
"Better to have tried and failed than to have never tried at all." |
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