|
|
|
Darwin Storm
Skeptic Friend
87 Posts |
 Posted - 06/28/2003 : 12:50:15 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
Or we could study critticly and logically (which i have done), and find out that it makes the most sense, it gives the most hope, and that almost nothing could ever deture that feeling. And if I addmit that I think it might be wrong, than I am not really a christian. Because I know it is, so I would be lieing through my teeth if I said otherwise.
There is something I have noticed amognst those who most support YEC and literalism of the bible, and that is their position is based on feelings and "knowing". Now, I have no problems with people "feeling", its part of being human, but it really isn't a sound basis for any scientific line of inquiry. A feeling is a feeling, facts are facts. Again, hope is a feeling as well, so even if the idea of god and YEC might give you hope, that doesn't mean it is scientific evidence. Its merely personal feelings.
AS to admiting the possibilty of being wrong, aren't you being extrememly close minded? There is nothing wrong with questioning things. Scientists constanly challenge and question their own theories. If the theories survive, they are reinforced and made stronger by having the facts examined and new information weighed in. If a theory is wrong, it must be abandoned or modiefied to incorporate the new facts. Science never pretends to be the "truth", merely our best explanation of the facts. However, you are arguing from a given "truth", claiming it must be correct, and are selectively ignoring data that may conflict with your beliefs. Unfortuanatly, the bible is not the definitive guide the to universe.
Also, what is wrong with questioning your faith? A faith that can't stand up to some basic questions is poorly founded. If your faith weathers such questioning, it is not only stronger, it is also your own. If you merely accept what others say without questioning their veracity, you really are putting yourself in a vunerable position.
As a fellow human being, the best advice I can give is to question everything. The universe is its own best sounding board. If something conflicts between one's beliefs and reality, remember, reality is never wrong. |
 |
|
|
byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2003 : 13:00:34 [Permalink]
|
| I question my faith every day. But I keep coming to the same conclusion. So I am not gonna lie and say that I think theres a chance I am wrong. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
|
|
|
byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2003 : 13:12:38 [Permalink]
|
Also,
Yes I have looked into many religions, including hinduism, buddhist, and many others. My refrences for those asking. It's called the Bible, it's book written many ears ago, that you folk obviously havn't studied at all, so stop talking like you all have. And no I have not "shaken hands with god". But I have been a wittness to things that are just as good. No one will believe me here but this is a true story.
My grandpa was a missionary in Japan in the 1960's. My grandparents barely had enough money to live on, but they somehoew got by. My grandpa was walking home from a place where he had just spoken, when the sole of his shoe fell off. He had no where near the money to replace them. He was gonna have to go home and tell his wife that he was gonna liiterally start going everywhere bare foot. When he got home before he could say anything, my grandma came out telling him that they had gotten a strange package from a lady they barely knew from the states. Inside were a brand new pair of shoes, in an un-usual size. size 12.5 a size big enough that he would have had a hard time finding them if he had the money. A few years later, he wore those shoes down completly, and one thmfell apart again. The same lady sent shoes on that day.
Now tell me thats luck. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2003 : 13:17:33 [Permalink]
|
Well, glad god is finally sending everyone in the world shoes. He should try sending some food and antibiotics and some other stuff now.
Wait a minute, you said a lady sent shoes. Is god a lady?
You know the Bible? Have you taken the Bible quiz?
http://www.ffrf.org/bquiz.html |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Darwin Storm
Skeptic Friend
87 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2003 : 13:18:16 [Permalink]
|
| Not luck, just coincidence. |
|
|
|
Darwin Storm
Skeptic Friend
87 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2003 : 13:30:38 [Permalink]
|
Also, I am amused to claim to "know" what people have or haven't read. Thats part of the problem.
I have read the bible, I attended sunday school as a kid. I will also say that even as a child, I could find contradicitions and wildly implausible and impossible claims in there. I am always amused that kids can easily spot contradictions and wild fantasy in the bible and question it, but adults merely accept it as rote truth, no matter how wild the claim. |
|
|
|
Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2003 : 16:43:09 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by creation88
quote:
I question my faith every day. But I keep coming to the same conclusion. So I am not gonna lie and say that I think theres a chance I am wrong.
Again, where's the evidence for creation, for example? For some reason you chose to throw away evolution complaining on the lack of evidence... and at the same time you say the creation is true, even though there's not one single bit of evidence. Where's your demand for evidence now?
quote:
Now tell me thats luck.
Sounds like a lot of luck to me. Remarkable coincidence.
If god is responsible for the good stuff he sends us, is god not then responsible for not sending us a lot of other good stuff we could use? |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
| Edited by - Maverick on 06/28/2003 16:46:27 |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2003 : 17:29:30 [Permalink]
|
Creation88 wrote:quote:
Or we could study critticly and logically (which i have done), and find out that it makes the most sense, it gives the most hope, and that almost nothing could ever deture that feeling.
But you have NOT studied evolution critically and logically, as is obvious from your complete and utter lack of comprehension of what it means. If all you've studied is your faith, then you have nothing upon which to base a comparison of what "makes the most sense." Your conclusion that the Bible makes more sense than evolution (even though they are not mutually-exclusive) is based on lies.quote:
And if I addmit that I think it might be wrong, than I am not really a christian. Because I know it is, so I would be lieing through my teeth if I said otherwise.
You lied about wanting to have a debate. Lying certainly isn't anathema to you.
Of course, like many Fundamentalists, you probably believe that simply by having faith that Jesus is your saviour and died for your sins, your personal little sins are washed away. Why worry about Hell (a sign of a spiteful, mean, and petty God if I ever saw one), when you can sin your life away and still get a pass to Heaven based only on what you believe?
quote:
Yes I have looked into many religions, including hinduism, buddhist, and many others. My refrences for those asking. It's called the Bible, it's book written many ears ago...
Age doesn't make it right. Bloodletting is much older than modern medicine. Which would you pick if you were sick?quote:
...that you folk obviously havn't studied at all, so stop talking like you all have.
No, what we haven't studied are the same lies about the Bible and evolution that you have. And when those lies are pointed out to you, you have no response.quote:
And no I have not "shaken hands with god". But I have been a wittness to things that are just as good. No one will believe me here but this is a true story.
I believe it, but I also believe it is evidence of nothing but a woman with a kind heart.
I just read a story about a truck driver who smashed into a lady's house twice. Same truck driver, same house, same lady. The two crashes were 23 years apart. Evidence that God hates that woman (and/or the trucker), I suppose.
The idea that coincidences like yours and the above are a sign of God's handiwork is simply another example of the innumerancy which plagues us all, along with a tremendous misunderstanding of statistics and probability.
|
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
NottyImp
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
143 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2003 : 01:52:49 [Permalink]
|
quote:
The idea that coincidences like yours and the above are a sign of God's handiwork is simply another example of the innumerancy which plagues us all, along with a tremendous misunderstanding of statistics and probability.
And a great deal of credulity. I heard a debate on radio once where someone pointed out that if 1000 different things happen to you every day (most of them utterly mundane), within three years something will have happened that had a million-to-one-chance. I've probably paraphrased this badly, but you get the drift.
Added to that, many peope can point to remarkable co-incidences in their lives. How is this in any way proof of God?
|
"My body is a temple - I desecrate it daily." |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2003 : 04:40:14 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
Also,
Yes I have looked into many religions, including hinduism, buddhist, and many others. My refrences for those asking. It's called the Bible, it's book written many ears ago, that you folk obviously havn't studied at all, so stop talking like you all have. And no I have not "shaken hands with god". But I have been a wittness to things that are just as good. No one will believe me here but this is a true story.
My grandpa was a missionary in Japan in the 1960's. My grandparents barely had enough money to live on, but they somehoew got by. My grandpa was walking home from a place where he had just spoken, when the sole of his shoe fell off. He had no where near the money to replace them. He was gonna have to go home and tell his wife that he was gonna liiterally start going everywhere bare foot. When he got home before he could say anything, my grandma came out telling him that they had gotten a strange package from a lady they barely knew from the states. Inside were a brand new pair of shoes, in an un-usual size. size 12.5 a size big enough that he would have had a hard time finding them if he had the money. A few years later, he wore those shoes down completly, and one thmfell apart again. The same lady sent shoes on that day.
Now tell me thats luck.
Not luck at all; scarcly even a coincidence. Just the heart-warming story of a generous lady, and doubtless a Christian, who admired your grandparents enough to keep track them. I can dig it. Historicly, missionaries often lead a tough life -- some have ended their's 'in the pot', as it were -- and they are much admired by various congregations at home.
Further, this is what is called 'ancedotal evidence', therefore no evidence at all, either for or against the existance of an all-knowing being watching over us.
But a good story none the less. Thanks for telling it.
 |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
|
Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2003 : 13:06:37 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
Also,
Yes I have looked into many religions, including hinduism, buddhist, and many others. My refrences for those asking. It's called the Bible, it's book written many ears ago, that you folk obviously havn't studied at all, so stop talking like you all have. And no I have not "shaken hands with god". But I have been a wittness to things that are just as good. No one will believe me here but this is a true story.
My grandpa was a missionary in Japan in the 1960's. My grandparents barely had enough money to live on, but they somehoew got by. My grandpa was walking home from a place where he had just spoken, when the sole of his shoe fell off. He had no where near the money to replace them. He was gonna have to go home and tell his wife that he was gonna liiterally start going everywhere bare foot. When he got home before he could say anything, my grandma came out telling him that they had gotten a strange package from a lady they barely knew from the states. Inside were a brand new pair of shoes, in an un-usual size. size 12.5 a size big enough that he would have had a hard time finding them if he had the money. A few years later, he wore those shoes down completly, and one thmfell apart again. The same lady sent shoes on that day.
Now tell me thats luck.
As for having read or studied the bible, I've read both the Catholic version of the bible and the King James. You see, my paternal grandfather was a Baptist minister and my mother is Catholic. I attended St. Rose of Lima grade school in Denver as a child. Essentially, I had a religious upbringing, whether it was school or summers on the farm with my grandparents. I held to the religion for so long because I thought everyone believed and I should too. I just didn't understand my own lack of faith and thought there was something wrong with me. This led to a personal internal conflict, until I chucked the idea of church and religion. There wasn't anything wrong with me, it was the idea of someone else telling me there was because I couldn't believe what they told me too.
Coincidence is a wonderful thing, and finding the connection must have been wonderful for your grandfather. A friend of mine runs the Llalamba mission in Ethiopia/Eritrea and the Sudan. His coincidence is more tragic than feel good. A young volunteer doctor argued with him not to shut the mission down because it was the only place she could work and do what she wanted when she decided to become a doctor. The decision was made to keep the Sudan hospital open, the young doctor was killed when fighting overran the hospital. All the equipment was stolen or destroyed. Medications were confiscated for use by the rebels. Doctors were put to death for operating on their enemy soldiers. These doctors didn't care who they were, they were only concerned with saving lives.
I agree with the work this gentleman does, he provides medical care and an orphanage without regard to religious belief or lack of belief. But the cost in human lives has been high to keep his dream going, he keeps going because of his faith, but also admits that it is the right thing to do regardless of religion. Which is why, although most of his orphans and patients are muslim, he does not push christianity as the prefered religion in his hospitals and orphanages.
He also accepts the fact that I can not find it in me to believe in something with out tangible evidence. He accepts any and all volunteers who are capable of making a difference in his missions. Many of the doctors, including several who have been killed, were openly atheistic or agnostic. He didn't care about that, he cared about the people he worked with and that their lives had been lost while he wasn't there. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
|
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2003 : 13:42:39 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
I question my faith every day. But I keep coming to the same conclusion. So I am not gonna lie and say that I think theres a chance I am wrong.
Could you please tell us in more detail how you go about questioning your faith?
There seems to be a cultural (and educational) gap between us, and it's making it difficult for us to communicate. We should go back to basics, try to find some common ground to work from. From there we can move on to more advenced discussions on filosophy and such.
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2003 : 18:54:47 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
It's sad how this site doesn't even try to have no biast....
Here's what's really sad, creation88. It's sad that your frequency here is likely to wane as your arguments and ideas are carefully shown to be flawed by the ragulars to this forum. It's sad that while these people took the time to post links to relevant sites and provide the names of important books and authors, you have brushed them aside without even considering them. It's sad that you'll go on in life continuing to think that it's you who's right, if only those evolutionists would just listen. It's sad that your command of the written English language is abysmal, and yet despite some helpful advice you continue to butcher it. Finally, it's sad that to you, this site somehow has bias. No, creation88, it isn't this site that's sad. |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2003 : 19:12:34 [Permalink]
|
Cuneiformist wrote:quote:
Finally, it's sad that to you, this site somehow has bias.
Actually, it's quite obvious this site is biased. And I haven't seen anything on the site which claims otherwise. I make no apologies for my pro-evidence bias, for example. What's sad is that Creation88 thought he would find unbiased opinions here - people who truly haven't "taken a side" on this issue, one way or another. He certainly isn't unbiased, why should he expect anyone else to be?
And he doesn't appear to have posted since Friday. I think his frequency here has already bottomed out. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2003 : 21:11:13 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
Also,
My grandpa was a missionary in Japan in the 1960's. My grandparents barely had enough money to live on, but they somehoew got by. My grandpa was walking home from a place where he had just spoken, when the sole of his shoe fell off. He had no where near the money to replace them. He was gonna have to go home and tell his wife that he was gonna liiterally start going everywhere bare foot. When he got home before he could say anything, my grandma came out telling him that they had gotten a strange package from a lady they barely knew from the states. Inside were a brand new pair of shoes, in an un-usual size. size 12.5 a size big enough that he would have had a hard time finding them if he had the money. A few years later, he wore those shoes down completly, and one thmfell apart again. The same lady sent shoes on that day.
Now tell me thats luck.
The miracle of the shoes ?? Al Bundy ??
Within a few minutes of reading your post I thought of a handful of explanations that would not rely upon divine intervention. If your grandfather is anything like me, and dare I say most married men, he may have been completely unaware of what your grandmother kept in the house, or how close the shoe sending friend actually was.
I'm suggesting that your grandmother would have noticed the condition of the shoes and when they were about to fall apart took some action, perhaps unintentional. An action as simple as a comment in a note to a friend, or in a conversation with a friend.
edited to change reply to rely |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 06/30/2003 21:13:19 |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
