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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
 Posted - 11/02/2003 : 15:19:31 [Permalink]
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The current troubles which Snake describes are not being perpetrated by Jews, yet Snake blames the Jews for those problems because the Jews wrote a book (later expanded and edited by non-Jews).
While Judaism itself is, indeed, "a continuance of myth over reality," to claim it is the cause of the "worlds troubles as we know them today" is far beyond reasonable. If Judaism hadn't existed, just about any other religion could have been used as justification (there are probably even extremist radical Buddhists out there somewhere, waiting for an opportunity to impose their values by force). The only places in the world these days where I see Jews as a group actively participating in strife, using religion as justification, is in and around Israel, and occassionally New York City. However, the former, due to its nature, may be more about "money and power," and the latter may be more about race.
If Snake's rant had targeted "religious people" instead of "Jews," I wouldn't have had an issue with it.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2003 : 16:37:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Please remember that Snake is not blaming every ill in the world on Jews, only saying that they have their part in some of the world's troubles by being a major monotheistic religion which sprouted other major religions.
Thank you, Thank You for understanding the major point, Gorgo.
quote:
posted by Dave W.
If Judaism hadn't existed, just about any other religion could have been used as justification
Yes, Dave. That's what I said.
quote:
(there are probably even extremist radical Buddhists out there somewhere, waiting for an opportunity to impose their values by force).
And yes, there are Buddhist extremists too. They already have tried. But they are cults, not reconized as true Buddhists. Buddhists and the basic idea of Buddhism has not evolved as has the Jewish religion, with its many & varied branches which do have a sense of authenticity. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2003 : 17:03:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
If Snake's rant had targeted "religious people" instead of "Jews," I wouldn't have had an issue with it.
For the record, isn't a rant something like screaming and yelling and getting hysterical? I thought so!
I'm just sitting here calmly saying what I think.
As for religious people vs. Jews, the people I mentioned are Jewish. Muslims, Christians, Catholics, and Mother Thresea. Jews, Jews, Jews.
The Jews started all those sects and the god that those people worship. It's the same god. Whatever anyone has an image of when they say god, that's the one. (you know, the one in the bush)
The Jews were the origin of it. It's their bible that those people get their roots from. If there's more than one god then can you explain it to me?
I think xians wouldn't like it if you told them Zeus is who they are praying to. 'Cause he's on Mt. Olympus. Can't hear them from over there.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2003 : 17:05:39 [Permalink]
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Snake wrote:quote:
Yes, Dave. That's what I said.
So why blame the Jews? You just agreed that there's nothing particularly unique about them that they deserve your scorn more than any other religion.quote:
And yes, there are Buddhist extremists too. They already have tried. But they are cults, not reconized as true Buddhists.
Much like Pentacostals claim that Catholics aren't Christians?quote:
Buddhists and the basic idea of Buddhism has not evolved as has the Jewish religion, with its many & varied branches which do have a sense of authenticity.
Of course, the people who follow those two major "evolved" branches of Judaism don't call themselves Jews, and some people from both branches claim that the differences between them and Judaism are so large that the Jews are necessarily going to Hell.
Do the Buddhist extremists consider themselves to be Buddhists?
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2003 : 22:49:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
So why blame the Jews? You just agreed that there's nothing particularly unique about them that they deserve your scorn more than any other religion
Scorn?
THAT'S IT! I'm done talking to you.
YOU don't get it.
Just saying this last thing, my only mention of hatred was toward my x-sister. I said (at least I don't think I said) nothing about anger toward Jews as a group.
In fact the snoby bastards I grew up with and my horrid family are in the past. They I hate. (they were the ones who gave me my 1st impressions of Jews, not a very good one. But how would you have known that, it's not in anything I said in my posts? So you have no right to say I have scorn for anyone.)
Why you've used word scorn is a puzzle to me.
But lately in the last few years, I'm meeting some very nice Jews, a couple of whom are good friends. I see they are not all bad. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2003 : 06:18:42 [Permalink]
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| 'Some of my best friends are Jews' Gimme a break. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2003 : 06:24:15 [Permalink]
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Snake, you are absolutely correct: I don't get it. And I sure won't ever get it if you refuse to further clarify your ideas.
I apologize for using the word 'scorn'. That was the impression I got from your words, though I don't equate 'scorn' with 'hatred'. Replace it with 'blame', instead:
"So why blame the Jews? You just agreed that there's nothing particularly unique about them that they deserve the blame more than any other religion."
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2003 : 06:44:51 [Permalink]
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| You don't have to flat out say you have scorn for Jews for it to be evident that you do. Comments like 'I see they are not all bad' don't really help. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2003 : 08:18:37 [Permalink]
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For cripes sake, bigotry is bigotry--whether it's regarding Jews or 'religious people' or blacks or gays. It's BIGOTRY, folks. It's prejudging, scapegoating, projecting, selective perception, confirmation bias, transfer of hostility, etc. Look it up--plenty of social science research exists regarding how racism and prejudice develop.
It doesn't matter how much tortured logic you offer or how many selectively filtered 'facts.' It's still BIGOTRY.
Also, ad hominem attacks in the vein of "Wouldn't want to make anyone angry" and "gee, you people need to calm down while I spout my bigoted nonsense" and "you just don't understand my bigoted nonsense so I'm taking my toys and going home" do nothing to further any kind of dialogue.
Enough from me. 
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2003 : 10:08:03 [Permalink]
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| I'm not defending or supporting what Snake is saying, I'm just saying that part of what I think Snake is saying is that religion is a problem, and Judaism deserves a lot of responsibility for that problem. If she is saying we should hang Jews as your response seems to show, then no, we should not hang Jews and it would be a good idea to express the idea that it's not a good idea to single out certain groups for demonization and punishment in such a manner. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2003 : 10:26:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Given Snake's stance on prop 54, you need to ask?
At least Kil had the curtesey to ask, this time.
As soon as I can put my thoughts together and have time I will post them. He might understand what I'm saying, more than Val. If though he doesn't agree.
Later,
nlm
Val, are you just trying to be nasty? Or don't you care to hear other opinions, or only with what you agree?
"Although I'm not Jewish, my parents were so I say I inherited the 'cheap gene'. I would wash paper plates...if I used them." -- Snake 8/13/2003 Prop 54 thread
Speaks volumes. You are merely reiterating the same tired invalid stereotypes.
History does not agree with you.
From the Papal Bulls expelling Jews from Europe, to Martin Luther's 1532 "On the Jews and their Lies", to Hitler's "Final solution", all assume the Jewish population of being miserly economic powerhouses. Most Jews lived in poverty. This is not true. The successful Jews were held up as the norm and demonized as part of a discriminatory class because they were different.
If you really want to demonize a class of people, how about the Aten worshipers of Ankhenaten? (Formerly Thothmosis IV(sp)) who arguably started the whole pie fight with monotheism in the first place? Why not the nature worshiping tribes of prehistory?
Slavery was the product of societal norms written into a religious document. Something that had lasted through the dark ages into the 1800's. Slavery existed before Judaism so your premise fails miserably. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 11/03/2003 10:35:41 |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2003 : 10:40:12 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, you can't have it both ways.
You argued on another thread that religion isn't a tool or a vehicle for people to do good. Your point was, if I remember, that good people would do good works anyway, regardless of religion.
Then by that logic, religion cannot be a tool for people to do bad things. Bad people would do bad things regardless of religion, right?
I understand resenting or feeling contempt toward certain religions or religious people. I have a particular contempt toward Jehovah Witnesses--but it reflects my personal experiences and, unfortunately, prejudice. People I love very much were harmed by evil crap done in the name of JehovahGod. Someday, when I'm more enlightened, maybe I'll get over it.
My only point is to call this what it is: prejudice. That's all. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2003 : 10:58:36 [Permalink]
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Well, I'm out of the discussion about Snake, maybe I got that all wrong, I don't know. Renae, a belief in god is a fear of reality. That is not constructive. People who need to fear reality choose methods to do that and religion is one of those methods. If religion wasn't around then they would, and do, find other ways to fear reality.
Do people use religion in constructive ways? I suppose they do, but they don't need religion to do those things and the fear of reality which is the basis for those actions threatens to undercut much of what is done. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2003 : 11:53:15 [Permalink]
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Renae said:
quote:
I understand resenting or feeling contempt toward certain religions or religious people. I have a particular contempt toward Jehovah Witnesses--but it reflects my personal experiences and, unfortunately, prejudice. People I love very much were harmed by evil crap done in the name of JehovahGod. Someday, when I'm more enlightened, maybe I'll get over it.
My only point is to call this what it is: prejudice. That's all.
I draw a distinction between prejudice and Bigotry. I have some prejudices which I feel are unreasonable and unfair. I strive to understand myself enough to know that my judgment may be clouded by some level of prejudice. I believe that prejudice is an incorrect perception. Irregardless of the group you cannot judge the individuals without knowing them.
Bigotry is embracing prejudice as an accurate perception and encorporating it into your life. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2003 : 12:11:23 [Permalink]
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Furshur, excellent way to explain the distinction. Thank you.
Gorgo, you are determined to see no good in religion, so I'll stop trying to convince you. I don't know what you do for a living, but I've worked in social services--four years, in fact, at a Christian organization. Christian volunteers at that agency gave 5 or more hours a week--a WEEK--of their time to a vulnerable and ungrateful population.
So if you refuse to see any good in religion, that's your prerogative and possibly your prejudice. I strive very hard to leave prejudice out of my thinking, because prejudice hinders my growth and my ability to be a kind and considerate person. Sometimes I succeed and sometimes I fail.
But, whatever. It's all a matter of opinion. |
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