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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 09/07/2003 : 10:23:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Me:
It must be nice going through life completely unencumbered by facts...
quote:
Snake:Kil, that is so beneath you. Sounds like those right wing talk show hosts who 'say' they are being fair and giving both sides air time but then the best they can do when they don't agree with a caller or guest is to insult or make snide remarks. Whatever!
You provided nothing but the link to one site. You offered no support for your view. You rejected all support for opposing views. You called all support for opposing views hysteria and half truths. That was your entire case. Sorry, but I think my summery of your behavior in this debate was accurate.
quote:
Snake:
Also, the LA Times? I wouldn't trust what I read there, I'd like to see an unbiased story (on any subject they print).
This is an example of what I am talking about. The article accurately reported that Connerly is being sued. They didn't make that up. I didn't notice any editorializing in their reporting. They talked to both sides. You however simply dismiss this with a wave of the hand and an accusation that anything that appears in the Times cannot be trusted. Done deal.
I admit that one reason why Connerly might not want to divulge the names of his contributors might be that it would embarrass his campaign was speculation on my part. But if you notice, I did not offer that view as a fact. I offered it as a strong possibility. I could be wrong. I doubt that I am. For Connerlys' part, he is breaking the law. That part is a fact.
I stand by my observation of your debating style. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 07:51:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Dollars to doughnuts some of his contributors would embarrass the pro 54 crusade to make this a "color blind state." He isn't protecting them, he is protecting himself. What a dickhead.
Problem is, he has as much as stated that he will not comply if the judgment goes against him.
Geeses Krist Kil, you would make a good talk show host!
Throwing out suppositions and planting doubts without knowledge of what really is happening. You say you haven't heard of Hannity but that's his MO. Only difference between you two is he's a jerk.
Also, the LA Times? I wouldn't trust what I read there, I'd like to see an unbiased story (on any subject they print).
Val, yes, that is my impression of your errors, that you were excited to get your point across. Sure, we all make errors and I too don't like when someone keeps pointing out spelling mistakes as a way of insulting the poster so I don't usually do it. Just in your case that's the sense I got, that you were in a hurry.
I still refer you and everyone else to the offical web site as I think it is very clear on the issue. I can't really add more (however if I do think of something you'll be the 1st to know) nor state it better so please stop saying I haven't told you why one should vote for it. If you don't agree that's different but the web site has all the information necessary.
I've read the website and the text of the proposition.
There is a lot of disconnect between the two.
Fact: 54 prevents the tracking of race to governmental agencies like the local health departments.
Fact: Local health departments are the first line of detection for epidemics.
Fact: Some diseases and conditions affect some races more profoundly due to cultural practices.
Fact: Local health departments trend disease outbreaks by race to see if there is a correspondence between race and the disease outbreak to more quickly identify those behaviors which aid the spread of that disease.
Reasoning: Local health departments have a hinderance to effective response under 54.
Fact: Racism still exists
Fact: Racism is rampant in hiring practices today as shown by research
Fact: 54 prevents government from tracking discrimination in the workplace
Fact: HIPAA and the Privacy Act of 1976 prevent outside organizations from tracking discrimination in the workplace
Fact: Connerly seeks to "protect" (hide) the names of his donors in violation of the law. A lawsuit has been filed to compell complaince with the reporting law. He has suggested a defense which uses the First Amendment freedom of association protections but does not claim fear of reprisal from the government. Rather, he claims fear of reprisal from the general public.
Reasoning: 54 prevents the tracking of discriminatory practices and 54's own champion of the cause knows it.
Instead of hand waving and begging the question, how about more support for your position than Prop 54 website's opinion on the legislation which has been refuted. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2003 : 10:02:06 [Permalink]
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Again, I find it ironic that Snake would use the same tactic as a fundamentalist for defending her faith. Anyone with an ounce of reason knows that you can't use the bible to defend the bible. You need evidence independent of the bible to support biblical claims. Same goes for politics. The claims made on the website she is so fond of sourcing is obviously biased. I mean, it is a site set up for the sole purpose of pushing the law they advocate. When others attack 54 for its flaws and hidden agenda, what are they going to do, agree?
To paraphrase an old Christian hymn:
Connerly loves me this I know/Cause his website tells me so...
I have spent many posts trying to point out to Snake, as a supposed critical thinker, the flaws in her debating style. Not that she isn't allowed to disagree or have an opinion, but that she is bound by certain rules that we skeptics hold dear. Producing support independent of those making the claims would be one of those rules. As I see it, Snake is just another person of faith. And people of faith need no justification for their religion, whatever it is...
Again, I say this to Snake as a friend. If you are a skeptic and a critical thinker, take the time to learn what that means. Take the time to understand that a certain responsibility comes with defining yourself that way. Otherwise, friend or not, I just can't take you seriously as a skeptic, critical thinker, freethinker or whatever you think you are. I will treat you as I would any other fundamentalist. I will continue to ask for the evidence to support of your claims. When none comes, I will dismiss your arguments as unsupported and lacking merit.
Call it tough love... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2003 : 02:23:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
(No, not you Snake, If the KKK was contributing, you would probably say so? It's their right...)
That, again I say, is the tactic of the side who has not a good argument, to bring in hysterics by mentioning 'hate' groups. And btw, I certainly do think the KKK has a right to march or contribute to whatever cause they think is important. And I would say so if that information was meant to be known. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2003 : 02:38:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Fact: 54 prevents the tracking of race to governmental agencies like the local health departments.
You have a fixsation on that health issue. It's only one of many parts to 54. AND, and, and how can I make it more clear to you, 1st of all, federal law supperceeds state law and there are excemption for health. So can you please tell me where you are seeing a health problem.
I can say no more than what is in the proposition and it seems clear to me.
As for a pro argument from me, would you like me to copy verbatem what is on that website because my thoughts are the same and they state them more precisely? You don't seem to get it. What else do you want me to say? If you don't like what it says, that's your right, I do (like it) and it's mine (right). |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2003 : 11:16:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Kil:
(No, not you Snake, If the KKK was contributing, you would probably say it's their right...)
Snake:
That, again I say, is the tactic of the side who has not a good argument, to bring in hysterics by mentioning 'hate' groups. And btw, I certainly do think the KKK has a right to march or contribute to whatever cause they think is important. And I would say so if that information was meant to be known.
Well, lets see. You had to ignore my last two posts to once again misrepresent the point I was trying to make, for the second time, with above, out of context quote. Lets see if can make this clearer for you. I'm not suggesting that the KKK contributed to the 54 cause. I'm suggesting that we have a right to know who is contributing because if some of those contributors agenda are, for example, racist, the people have a right to know. Since Connerly is hiding names the of his donors, in violation of fair discloser campaign laws, I think it's fair to speculate on why his is hiding names when the law says he can't. If he releases those donors names, I wouldn't be speculating on his motives and voters would have more information to help them determine how they might vote. Again, I have to state that my gut on this is that he would have happily released the names if they bolstered his cause. That is just common sense.
quote:
Snake:
I can say no more than what is in the proposition and it seems clear to me.
As for a pro argument from me, would you like me to copy verbatem what is on that website because my thoughts are the same and they state them more precisely?
quote:
Me:
Connerly loves me this I know/Cause his website tells me so...
I took out individual names so this list would not go on forever.
A Partial list of those opposing the proposition:
quote:
HEALTH ORGANIZATIONS:
Alameda Health Consortium
American Academy of Pediatrics, California District
American Cancer Society
American College of Epidemiology
American Public Health Association
American Heart Association, Western States Affiliate
Armenian American Medical Society
Asian Health Services
Asian Pacific Islander American Health Forum
Asian Pacific Islander Wellness Center
Asian Perinatal Advocates
Association of Asian Pacific Community Health Organizations
Blue Cross
Breast Cancer Action
Breast Cancer Fund
California Academy of Family Physicians
California Association of Public Hospitals
California Black Health Network
California Center for Public Health Advocacy
California Conference of Local Health Officers
California Healthcare Association
California Medical Association
California Nurses Association
California Pan-Ethnic Health Network
California Physicians Alliance
California Primary Care Association
California Public Health Association-North
California Public Health Association-South
Capitol Medical Society
Center for Environmental Health
Community Health Partnership
Health Access California
Health & Environmental Justice Project
Health Net
Health Officers Association of California
Health Services Agency -- County of Santa Cruz
Healthy Children Organizing Project
Kaiser Permanente
La Clinica de la Raza
Latino Coalition for a Healthy California
Local Health Plans of California
Los Ange |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2003 : 08:41:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Fact: 54 prevents the tracking of race to governmental agencies like the local health departments.
You have a fixsation on that health issue. It's only one of many parts to 54. AND, and, and how can I make it more clear to you, 1st of all, federal law supperceeds state law and there are excemption for health. So can you please tell me where you are seeing a health problem.
I can say no more than what is in the proposition and it seems clear to me.
As for a pro argument from me, would you like me to copy verbatem what is on that website because my thoughts are the same and they state them more precisely? You don't seem to get it. What else do you want me to say? If you don't like what it says, that's your right, I do (like it) and it's mine (right).
I will try to explain it to you one more time. You obviously do not understand the difference between a state agency and a federal one.
The state health department takes a lead from the federal government but are not required to follow all directives. The CDC does not concentrate on state disease outbreaks. It concerns itself with regional outbreaks and provide support for local health departments. It relys on those state departments for their reporting.
Local health departments are solely under the control of the state. As such, they are prohibited from gathering race determination from reporting. Without that information the set of facts set up in the previous post will negatively impact healthcare for all races by removing a trending tool used to focus on racial enclave behaviors.
You have not addressed the second point of the previous post nor have you done anything else except forward and appeal to authority to a source which is suspect.
Based on Kil's subsequent post concerning the supporters of the proposition, it is clear that the supporters have no medical background. In more than one case, it cites racist organizations such as English First.
A supporter of the legislation is the Association of Concerned Taxpayers. This organization was formed in 1992 and has a a goal the reduction or removal of any program which costs money except for defense. They want a flat tax, an abandonment of all environmental laws which may impact business independant of environmental impact (lists as an accomplishment the defeat of the Kyoto Accord), and any regulatory oversight of business which costs the federal government money. They list as a supporter Senator Jesse Helms. They hold several racist attitudes against Arabs. Their action item urge members to write the Justice Department asking for lienency against Microsoft persuant to their anti-trust settlement.
http://www.aoctp.org/jcox05802.shtml
http://www.aoctp.org/about.shtml
http://www.aoctp.org/ai.shtml
The Log Cabin Republicans make no mention of a recomendation on Prop 54.
http://www.lcrca.com/endorsements.htm
The California Board of Equalization does not have a stand on 54. Nor is Dean Andel a board member nor part of the Legislative Division of that agency. His actions cannot be ascribed to the CBOE.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Mahaad_Mana
New Member
29 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2003 : 22:25:29 [Permalink]
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| Ok, I only skimmed through it cause I couldn't be stuffed reading. Can anyone kindly tell me what this '54' is trying to do and why people are opposing against it? Thanks! |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2003 : 23:53:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Mahaad_Mana
Ok, I only skimmed through it cause I couldn't be stuffed reading. Can anyone kindly tell me what this '54' is trying to do and why people are opposing against it? Thanks!
The main idea is for people to be judged on their own merit and have no special favors because of their race.
For example:
My son is exactly 1/2 one race and 1/2 another, when he registered for public school we had to check off what race he is. I told them he's a halfie. There is a box for multi-cultural but they said...insisted that we still have to check off one of the others race also. Why did they need to know? That's my question. I was so angry but they wouldn't admit him to school if we didn't do it.
BTW, what did it prove anyway? If he checked off one race or the other, it wouldn't give a fair account of who's in the population anyway. And he wasn't alone, there were several other students of mixed race too. Just seems to me 1st off the government wants to know too much. And it also creats too much paperwork, if you know what I mean. MONEY! It all comes down to money and the people who want it and get it for phoney reasons.
On one hand we are told, everybody should love and respect each other and we are supposed to live together as one big happy family, yet on the other they make lists. Lists of who's who, lists that create organizations to polorize people into groups. Groups that get MONEY for supporting differences.
Any of the arguments that I've heard so far don't make sense as to why there needs to be lists of race based information.
Those who are against the issue seem to want to be 'politicly correct' more than logical about the situation. Or they are missinformed about what the law will do and are against it because they think something will happen that isn't really in the proposal.
It's very simple to read and from what I see it sounds like a good idea. That is, to judge someone for who they are (what they've accomplished instead of what they look like.
To each his own, I guess! |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2003 : 07:43:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Mahaad_Mana
Ok, I only skimmed through it cause I couldn't be stuffed reading. Can anyone kindly tell me what this '54' is trying to do and why people are opposing against it? Thanks!
And now for the opposing view.
Prop 54 would prohibit recording someone's race in their 'file' in many cases. In some cases race must still be recorded because of Federal laws that prop 54 cannot override.
I agree 100% with Snake's statement that all people should be judged on their own merit rather than on race. The problem is that there are still a great many people who discriminate based on race. One of the main reasons for recording race is to ensure that there is sufficient data to prove that people are being discrimnated against due to their race.
Consider a used car dealership that makes car loans as well as selling cars. They have a manager who makes all the decisions about loans. If this manager is racist and consistently discriminates against non-white people by charging them higher loan rates or denying them loans despite good credit ratings, then the only reasonable way to prove this is if an investigator ro court can look at the loan documents and categorize the loans by race.
This manager can look at the car buyer and see what race they look like. Prop 54 does not cover anyone's face. He can discriminate based on what he sees. If he doesn't have to write it down, then Prop 54 would serve to protect him from accusations.
I say that Proposition 54 supports racism protection.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2003 : 12:29:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tw101356
Prop 54 would prohibit recording someone's race in their 'file' in many cases. In some cases race must still be recorded because of Federal laws that prop 54 cannot override.
It is my understanding that federal law Can Not be overidden so if you would be so kind as to point out how, I would be appreciative.
quote:
Consider a used car dealership that makes car loans as well as selling cars. They have a manager who makes all the decisions about loans. If this manager is racist and consistently discriminates against non-white people by charging them higher loan rates or denying them loans despite good credit ratings, then the only reasonable way to prove this is if an investigator ro court can look at the loan documents and categorize the loans by race.
This manager can look at the car buyer and see what race they look like. Prop 54 does not cover anyone's face. He can discriminate based on what he sees. If he doesn't have to write it down, then Prop 54 would serve to protect him from accusations.
A private business should have the right to sell to whom ever they want to. It is their loss when the customer goes somewhere else.
More laws cost more to enforce and it may not stop discrimination anyway. There's always subtle ways to get around things. Economics and education is the way to help people. If the government wastes money with these stupid laws it takes away money that could go for other better uses. The more taxes we pay the less we have to use to put ourselves in a better ecomonic situation. THAT's what fights racism. Would a car dealer turn down a chance to sell car to Oprah? |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2003 : 12:47:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein, California
U.S. Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi, 8th District, House Minority Leader
U.S. Congresswoman Diane Watson, 33rd District
Cruz Bustamante
Just a few of the names I know well and of course now Mr. Bustamante. Is that supposed to mean something or be impressive? All of them I think would be happier living in Russia.
If they are an example of the thinking of the rest of those on the list.....well, 'nuf said.
quote:
U.S. Congressman Howard Berman, 26th District
And then there's MY own congressman. So far he's not answered the last three letters I've sent him. Great representation! Although I do have to say there are a few of his votes (on bills) that I agreed with. He's been in congress too long though and we need to keep an eye on him, too much politics and not enough 'for the people' stuff. |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2003 : 14:16:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by tw101356
Prop 54 would prohibit recording someone's race in their 'file' in many cases. In some cases race must still be recorded because of Federal laws that prop 54 cannot override.
It is my understanding that federal law Can Not be overidden so if you would be so kind as to point out how, I would be appreciative.
I wasn't clear enough and you misunderstood. I was saying that prop 54 cannot override federal laws that require race to be recorded.
quote:
quote:
Consider a used car dealership that makes car loans as well as selling cars. They have a manager who makes all the decisions about loans. If this manager is racist and consistently discriminates against non-white people by charging them higher loan rates or denying them loans despite good credit ratings, then the only reasonable way to prove this is if an investigator ro court can look at the loan documents and categorize the loans by race.
This manager can look at the car buyer and see what race they look like. Prop 54 does not cover anyone's face. He can discriminate based on what he sees. If he doesn't have to write it down, then Prop 54 would serve to protect him from accusations.
A private business should have the right to sell to whom ever they want to.
They should have no right to categorically discriminate based on race, religion, or nationality.
quote:
It is their loss when the customer goes somewhere else.
He doesn't have to deny the loan to discriminate. He can simply charge non-whites an extra eighth or two in interest, thus having an economic incentive to discriminate. Or maybe the application fee is a little bit higher.
quote:
More laws cost more to enforce and it may not stop discrimination anyway. There's always subtle ways to get around things.
Exactly, and keeping track of race makes it possible to expose the subtle forms of racism. Without the tracking, racists don't have to make as much effort to be subtle.
quote:
Economics and education is the way to help people. If the government wastes money with these stupid laws it takes away money that could go for other better uses. The more taxes we pay the less we have to use to put ourselves in a better ecomonic situation. THAT's what fights racism. Would a car dealer turn down a chance to sell car to Oprah?
So you force the government to spend more money to educate everyone as to which forms no longer need race filled out and which must still indicate race due to Fed. requirements. No savings here.
Then you force the government to spend more money to investigate allegations of discrimination because they can no longer just review records but must also track down people and interview them to determine race. No savings here.
Prop 54 won't stop discrimination, it'll just make it harder to prove and thus easier to commit.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2003 : 15:26:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil:
U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein, California
U.S. Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi, 8th District, House Minority Leader
U.S. Congresswoman Diane Watson, 33rd District
Cruz Bustamante
Snake Spews:
Just a few of the names I know well and of course now Mr. Bustamante. Is that supposed to mean something or be impressive? All of them I think would be happier living in Russia.
If they are an example of the thinking of the rest of those on the list.....well, 'nuf said.
I listed 57 health organizations that are against 54.
I listed 40 health care professionals including the last three U.S. Surgeon Generals who oppose proposition 54.
I listed 96 public officials who are against 54.
I listed about 160 organizations that are in opposition to the initiative including
the ACLU, and the NAACP. Groups that fight against racism. In fact, most of the organizations on this list exist to fight racism and bigotry.
I listed 8 political associations.
I listed 16 religious leaders or organizations that are against 54.
20 legal groups and Bar associations are also listed.
The list of supporters for 54 who have signed on as such? 30.
They listed the log cabin republicans who have not come out in favor of 54
They listed Joseph Coors who is dead.
They listed David Horewitze who is a right wing whacko.
Snake, you sick little puppy. Diane Fienstein would be happier living in Russia?
Once again, I could never match you for making the case against 54.
For those really interested in this, please refer to the earlier pages of this thread. There is a lot of good info provided by Valiant Dancer on the Health Care ramifications if this ridiculous proposition was to pass.
There is also a lot of arm waving and such by Snake. Look closely and you will notice that she doesn't provide a single shred of anything to back up her arguments. In fact, she doesn't even make any arguments. It boils down to this. If you don't agree with Snake you are a hysteric and spreading half truths.... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2003 : 07:13:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by tw101356
Prop 54 would prohibit recording someone's race in their 'file' in many cases. In some cases race must still be recorded because of Federal laws that prop 54 cannot override.
It is my understanding that federal law Can Not be overidden so if you would be so kind as to point out how, I would be appreciative.
tw101356 was referring to state held files. He fully acknowledges race will be recorded for federal means. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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