|
|
|
Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
 Posted - 09/02/2003 : 17:33:19
|
I've been doing some research on the Mid-East conflict. As you problably could guess there are conflicting views on just about everything.
I will present a mini-documentary, (mind you very one sided) on the history of the conflict.http://jewishinternetassociation.org/historynutshell/conflict.html
Any views of the conflict, opinions......where the site has merit, and where it presents falsehoods would be appriectiated.
Slower computers may need a little time to load....
Fire
|
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
|
|
Mahaad_Mana
New Member
29 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2003 : 23:22:37 [Permalink]
|
I reckon it still gives no right for muslims/arab countries to start blowing themselves up in Isreal to kill them simply for being there and trying to live!!!!!!!!!! Why they hate Jewish people and christians I have no idea. Their supposibly "peaceful" religion doesn't look too peaceful to me and what was it? They believe if they kill non-believers or something they will go to heaven and the men will get all these nice "virgins" to sleep with.
I'm not surprised why the American war is happening and yet the Iraqs are blaming Americans for hurting their own innocent people. Just cause America hasn't found the "weapons of destruction" doesn't mean they don't exist. |
 |
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2003 : 02:01:23 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Fireballn
http://jewishinternetassociation.org/historynutshell/conflict.html
Any views of the conflict, opinions......where the site has merit, and where it presents falsehoods would be appriectiated.
The piece is not more biased than expected. The historical accounts seems accurate enough, however, they claim to know the motivations of Arafat, and are generalizing the arabs to the point of absurdity.
There are hard-liners on both sides, and even though they are in minority, they are very vocal. Each side has failed in suppressing their own war-mongers, which is a pity.
I used to think the Jews in Israel were decent enough, and the land occupied after the Jom Kippur war, could be considered reparations for a shameful unprovoked attack. But the last 15 years I've seen them pay back eye for an eye. And by intentionally destroying the infra-structure in the occupied areas they are provoking more suicide attacks. By blowing up police stations and other governmental buildings, they are paving the streets for religious fanatics. And this is the scary thing: Israel is unwittingly helping Hamas gathering their forces!
By preventing the state of Palestine from forming they are preventing the creation of a social infrastructure for the palestinians. It gives the Hamas and other fanatic groups the opportunity to provide a social safety-net. Social welfare and education that comes with a price-tag and strings attached. "Receive our help, but please listen to our sermons..."
The Israel army has even destroyed buildings raised by international help groups, (financed partly by the Swedish government amongst others) buildings that were for the benefit of palestinians without those fanatic's strings attached. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2003 : 13:21:50 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mahaad_Mana
I reckon it still gives no right for muslims/arab countries to start blowing themselves up in Isreal to kill them simply for being there and trying to live!!!!!!!!!! Why they hate Jewish people and christians I have no idea.
Follow the link provided by Gorgo, read it, and you might begin to understand at least some of the animosity between Israel and it's neighbours. quote:
Their supposibly "peaceful" religion doesn't look too peaceful to me and what was it? They believe if they kill non-believers or something they will go to heaven and the men will get all these nice "virgins" to sleep with.
Well, Christians shoots and bomb each other in North Ireland.
American Christians vandalize abortion clinics, and beats up abortion doctors. Then all they have to do is ask forgivness for all the violence they have committed, and they go to heaven.
Really, I have a hard time understanding why muslims should be held to a higher standard than christians.
quote:
I'm not surprised why the American war is happening
I'm not surprised either.
quote:
...and yet the Iraqs are blaming Americans for hurting their own innocent people.
Yeah, why is that? It is obvious that America did Iraqi people a favour by removing Saddam Hussein from power. Maybe they don't understand that some of their own people was not that innocent?
quote:
Just cause America hasn't found the "weapons of destruction" doesn't mean they don't exist.
All weapons are weapons of destruction. You meant mass-destruction, right? Well, Iraq is big, so it will take some more time of searching before they can conclusively say those weapons did indeed not exist. My own opinion is that weapons of mass destruction was just a sad excuse to launch an attack. The USA with it's allies should have put Saddam out of our misery during Operation Desert Storm back in 1990. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 09/24/2003 13:24:36 |
|
|
|
@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2003 : 14:48:43 [Permalink]
|
Even the US government's search teams are ready to declare that there are no WMDs. Saddam destroyed them after the first gulf war according to just about every source. Another thing worth considering, as the US government should have, is that the WMDs had a shelf life and even if they hadn't been destroyed they would be little more than cannisters of "stuff" posing a threat to no one.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
|
|
|
Mahaad_Mana
New Member
29 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2003 : 01:33:38 [Permalink]
|
quote:
All weapons are weapons of destruction. You meant mass-destruction, right? Well, Iraq is big, so it will take some more time of searching before they can conclusively say those weapons did indeed not exist. My own opinion is that weapons of mass destruction was just a sad excuse to launch an attack. The USA with it's allies should have put Saddam out of our misery during Operation Desert Storm back in 1990.
If the Americans truly did want a war with Iraq. Why not go right after the twin towers when everyone was demanding it? Weapons of mass distruction as in Bomb! Nuclear bombs! They could of moved it out of Iraq for all you know.
quote:
Well, Christians shoots and bomb each other in North Ireland.
American Christians vandalize abortion clinics, and beats up abortion doctors. Then all they have to do is ask forgivness for all the violence they have committed, and they go to heaven.
Really, I have a hard time understanding why muslims should be held to a higher standard than christians.
True Christains wouldn't do that. It doesn't mention to use violence like that anywhere in the bible. If you have done some research and studying you would of found that they were all doing it in the name of 'Allah to non-believers'. They rape non-believers while chanting in the name of Allah etc... I'm not sure if that is what the Qua'ran tells them but that sure is evil.
quote:
Yeah, why is that? It is obvious that America did Iraqi people a favour by removing Saddam Hussein from power. Maybe they don't understand that some of their own people was not that innocent?
Then why are you opposing the war?
You know Dr. Mabuse. It's like you follow me everywhere trying to say I'm wrong wrong wrong to make yourself feel good ever since you said my attitude saddens you. Judging by your reviews you don't like to talk in a civil way. Well, your attiture SADDENS ME as well.... and like I said before you still are a loser..... You must have a pretty pathetic life to be able to spend all your time on this form all day.....
Like I said before I'm not Christian but why should I respect you if you don't respect other people......
|
|
|
|
Mahaad_Mana
New Member
29 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2003 : 01:37:09 [Permalink]
|
| Dr. Mabuse: For other people I meant me and no, I'm ignorant and don't like being called wrong. I have a very different point of view is all. |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2003 : 13:00:18 [Permalink]
|
I've just returned after a week without internet at home, so I have barely had the time to catch up on the forum yet.
In my previous response to Mahaad Mana I must confess I threw out a bait, sectretly hoping that Mahaad would spot it and not take it. Please don't tip her off, it would be a challenge of free thinking for her to spot it.
Mahaad: I'll be occupied elsewhere for a few days, so I give you until monday to (hopefully) answer. I'm not intentionally trying to antagonize you, and I trust that other skeptics will step in and tell me if I'm out of line. Reading your posts, I've seen that your "different point of view" gives you an inaccurate view of the world, and I would like to help you shake off at least some of the things that are distorting your vision. You need to challenge your preconceptions. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 10/09/2003 15:31:50 |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2003 : 17:00:10 [Permalink]
|
Remember that in order to obey international law, which is also the law of the land, the only reason one country can attack another is to thwart an imminent threat. Once that imminent threat is eliminated, all countries have to submit to the UN for further action.
If it was simply about WMD, then the inspectors could have taken care of that job.
Why is George Bush not only not in prison, but still in office? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2003 : 17:17:16 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Remember that in order to obey international law, which is also the law of the land, the only reason one country can attack another is to thwart an imminent threat. Once that imminent threat is eliminated, all countries have to submit to the UN for further action.
If it was simply about WMD, then the inspectors could have taken care of that job.
Why is George Bush not only not in prison, but still in office?
Because we are a nation of idiots. 'Nuff said.
 |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2003 : 17:55:20 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mahaad_Mana
If the Americans truly did want a war with Iraq. Why not go right after the twin towers when everyone was demanding it?
Because they knew Iraq and Saddam Hussein didn't have anything to do with it. And the US administration realized it would be too hard to manufacture false evidense pointing to Iraq with such a short notice. You know, people can't go around punishing others without proof.
quote:
Weapons of mass distruction as in Bomb! Nuclear bombs! They could of moved it out of Iraq for all you know.
Yes they could. So what? They haven't even found MANUFACTURING-sites for nuclear devices.
quote:
quote:
Well, Christians shoots and bomb each other in North Ireland.
American Christians vandalize abortion clinics, and beats up abortion doctors. Then all they have to do is ask forgivness for all the violence they have committed, and they go to heaven.
Really, I have a hard time understanding why muslims should be held to a higher standard than christians.
True Christains wouldn't do that. It doesn't mention to use violence like that anywhere in the bible. If you have done some research and studying you would of found that they were all doing it in the name of 'Allah to non-believers'. They rape non-believers while chanting in the name of Allah etc... I'm not sure if that is what the Qua'ran tells them but that sure is evil.
When reading this, I realize how very naive you are.
How did you arrive to the conlusion that you can compare "true" christians with muslims that do stuff like "rape non-believers while chanting in the name of Allah etc..." (where did you get that from anyway, I haven't heard anything about it). Islaam is just as peaceful as christianity. The main difference is that christianity has had a reinissance of humanism, where Islaam has yet to have one.
This was the red herring I threw at you, hoping you'd see through: The North Ireland confict has nothing to do with religion, it's mainly a territorial dispute. The same goes with Israel, that conflict is basically also a territorial conflict, where both antagonists are using religion as a tool to rally support.
quote:
Then why are you opposing the war?
Because it was waged for the wrong reason. It wasn't to free the Iraqi people. It was mainly to secure oil production in the middle east, to keep prices down in the US economy.
quote:
Like I said before I'm not Christian but why should I respect you if you don't respect other people......
You are very quick to defend christianity, and to accuse non-christian groups of bad things. Many times, it seems, without you appearing to understand the underlying conflict. I'm simply trying to point that out, and hope that you might learn something from me.
Your perspective is narrow, and it needs to be widened.
You need to question people who telling you that "true" christians (what ever that may be) are so flawless, and other religions are so bad.
Ask yourself these questions:
What is this person telling me?
What is his motivation for telling this?
Is this person objective?
Is this fact or could it be hear-say or fiction?
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2003 : 18:50:20 [Permalink]
|
Well put, Doc. Very well put, indeed.
In short, one must think critically. Merely because someone has credentials does not mean that he/she cannot be mistaken, nor even down right dishonest.
Thanks for the post.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2003 : 19:38:24 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Well put, Doc. Very well put, indeed.
In short, one must think critically. Merely because someone has credentials does not mean that he/she cannot be mistaken, nor even down right dishonest.
Thanks for the post.
Thanks Filthy.
Talking about beeing mistaken, I just realized that I've made a mistake regarding Operation Desert Storm: I wrote 1990, but it was autumn -90 Saddam invaded Kuwait. It wasn't until January or February -91 the operation started. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 10/17/2003 19:29:22 |
|
|
|
Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2003 : 05:02:41 [Permalink]
|
I wonder how many people in this world would stand by happily accepting their lot in life as their home is bulldozed because their brother or sister, or son or daughter, or even their neighbor is suspected of ties with terrorists.
Or perhaps, what if their home is destroyed, or they are coerced out because another person, a new immigrant, just happens to be the same religion or imagined ethnicity as that officially recognized by the ruling gov't?
Who would take pleasure in being forcefully relocated to a refugee camp, or to a new home in one of the world's most densely populated ghettos with little chance for gainful employment?
What person would not be frightened by a gov't that jails people without charge, and holds them for extended periods without trial?
I'll be honest, I'm happy that my gov't didn't do those things to my family because a close relative once committed crimes of terror while wearing a pointy hat and a white bed sheet...
|
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
|
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2003 : 19:35:19 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tim
What person would not be frightened by a gov't that jails people without charge, and holds them for extended periods without trial?
I'm afraid of the US government. They are holding people prisoners in Cuba against the Geneva Convention. They are not considered prisoners of war, and they are not considered civilian. Therefore, they have no rights?
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
