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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
 Posted - 10/17/2003 : 17:47:07
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This could just as well have gone in the medicine forum.
"Doctors in the United States will today disclose that heart patients who were prayed for by groups of strangers recovered from surgery at the same rate as those who were not.
The three-year study, led by cardiologists from Duke University Medical Centre in North Carolina, involved 750 patients in nine hospitals and 12 prayer groups around the world, from Christians in Manchester to Buddhists in Nepal.
Earlier, less extensive, research suggested prayer could have a measurably beneficial effect..."
Power of prayer found wanting in hospital trial
Is it just me, or does it seem like a waste to spend three years to do a scientific test of magic incantations? 
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"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
 Posted - 10/17/2003 : 18:17:15 [Permalink]
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Jeez, I could had told them that. And it would had only taken about 15 seconds, instead of three years.
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"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2003 : 19:14:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ktesibios
Is it just me, or does it seem like a waste to spend three years to do a scientific test of magic incantations?
It does not seem a waste to me...
A hypothesis (however ridiculous) was posed. Then a test was designed to test the hypothesis. The result concluded that the hypothesis was wrong.
This is an important study, because it directly comes into bearing when debating Fundies(tm).
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2003 : 20:33:32 [Permalink]
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It may be important, but who paid for it? If any of my tax money went into funding any of the three studies, I'm very angry, indeed. The probability of success is so low that the money would have been better spent feeding even a single hungry child.
Of course, the lead researcher is claiming that more research needs to be done. That it's too early to conclude anything. Contrary to what he's claiming, though, drug companies would be dropping such an "iffy" line of research very quickly. Since the early studies weren't (from my understanding) very good anyway, the latest more-likely reflects reality, and that would spell the end of R&D funding in a major pharmaceutical company.
The doctor is grasping at straws, trying to maintain funding to conduct research to bolster his romantic fantasies, and nothing more. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2003 : 21:04:08 [Permalink]
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Faith is so powerful that with just a wave of his hand the Rt Rev Tom Wright dismisses this work as crude. If the test had even hinted at the possibility that prayer may have had some minor impact on the recovery of these heart patient I'm sure that Rev Tom would have quickly hailed it as a triumph for science and religion.
I suspect that at best prayer can be consoling. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2003 : 05:45:21 [Permalink]
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You'll forgive me if I don't jump for joy at the results of this one?
It would've been nice if prayer--or painting your fingernails polkadot or anything else--would have helped sick people.
Prayer is one of the more circular Christian beliefs. Apparently, whether you get what you pray for or not, it's God's Will either way. My question is: why bother to pray, then? God's gonna do what God does, regardless.
I do agree prayer might provide comfort for both the prayer and prayee. It also seems to help people believe (perhaps falsely) that they have a sense of control or influence over external events--which is sometimes good and sometimes bad. Friends have told me that prayer helps them focus on what they need and want at a given time. So in those senses, I think prayer has value.
Maybe Satan interfered with this study and that's why we didn't see God's work.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2003 : 09:06:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dave W:
It may be important, but who paid for it? If any of my tax money went into funding any of the three studies, I'm very angry, indeed. The probability of success is so low that the money would have been better spent feeding even a single hungry child.
I think these sort of studies have value beyond simply debunking silly claims. Insurance company's, to save money, are allowing patients to pursue more alternative treatments under coverage. Acupuncture, chiropractic and naturalpathic "Doctors" are now getting reimbursement by many health insurance providers. It is conceivable that prayer could be added to that list. Also, we have all heard of deaths due to non treatment of curable ailments because, for example, some Christian Science parents decided to pray for a loved one rather than seek treatment because they believe prayer is the way. Studies like these may take a bit of wind out of their sails and cause them to reconsider before they kill another one of their children. It may also help to make this kind of criminal neglect more prosecutable. The faith healing "industry" might also be negatively impacted. I really can't say if all of these good things will come of the studies, but without them there is no chance. Solid evidence trumps anecdotal evidence when push comes to shove.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2003 : 15:10:19 [Permalink]
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I hadn't considered the effect clinical studies could have on insurance reimbursements, nor the effect what insurers will pay for could have on the treatments people receive.
Filtering the effective from the ineffective in medicine is important, and I reckon this study is justifiable on that basis.
It won't have much effect on believers, though. Apart from the "testing this earthly claim is testing God, and you can't do that" argument seen in the article itself, there's also the fact that what was tested was a generic version of prayer rather than a brand-name version.
Xtian fundies can point to the presence of prayer groups of other religions and claim that Jebus withheld his miracles because of the involvement of heathens. |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2003 : 15:31:50 [Permalink]
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| There is the placebo effect to consider. If a person believes a pill will make him better, there is a chance it will even if it was a sugar pill. As will prayer, granted the person will have to believe in the power of prayer for it to work. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2003 : 16:43:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Fireballn
There is the placebo effect to consider. If a person believes a pill will make him better, there is a chance it will even if it was a sugar pill. As will prayer, granted the person will have to believe in the power of prayer for it to work.
I've seen an old man being faith-healed from system-wide arthritis at a revivalist meeting. It was astounding to see him run up and down the isle... A true testament to the power of healing.
But no one saw him trying to get out of bed the next morning. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2003 : 05:22:51 [Permalink]
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Kil wrote:
quote:
I think these sort of studies have value beyond simply debunking silly claims. Insurance company's, to save money, are allowing patients to pursue more alternative treatments under coverage.
Holy Crap! I guess I'm just stupid, but I have wondered why the insurance industry would embrace these quacks and snake oil salesmen, and obviously it is money. It is much cheaper to allow a person that has cancer to drink Wolfbane tea than it is to have them undergo chemo and radiation therapy. So what if these bogus treatments cut the patients life short. It is so dispicable that the thought that the insurance companys would do this never entered my mind. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2003 : 22:16:19 [Permalink]
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Kil wrote:quote:
I think these sort of studies have value beyond simply debunking silly claims. Insurance company's, to save money, are allowing patients to pursue more alternative treatments under coverage. Acupuncture, chiropractic and naturalpathic "Doctors" are now getting reimbursement by many health insurance providers. It is conceivable that prayer could be added to that list.
And debunking any of these things will do what? I posit that they will do nothing without new laws passed specifically banning the insurance companies from paying for certain types of treatment, and we can guess how that's going to fare in the courts. Wait before replying, because...quote:
Studies like these may take a bit of wind out of their sails and cause them to reconsider before they kill another one of their children.
Not at all. It is God's Holy Will that such children die. Besides which, everyone knows that scientists are all atheists, so the studies are all actually run by Satan himself.quote:
It may also help to make this kind of criminal neglect more prosecutable.
Not at all, since our laws are based on the 10 Commandments.quote:
The faith healing "industry" might also be negatively impacted. I really can't say if all of these good things will come of the studies, but without them there is no chance. Solid evidence trumps anecdotal evidence when push comes to shove.
Unfortunately, it is in this area which I have finally become cynical (instead of my usual reserved idealism): when push comes to shove, "true believer syndrome" is often the real winner. No matter whether the "true believer" believes in God, acupuncture, homeopathy, or what-have-you, no amount of negative evidence will sway the belief. Ad hoc hypotheses about why the evidence is wrong are very easy to fabricate, and the "true believer" is not competent to figure out why those excuses are poor, at best.
There are far too many "true believers" in the insurance and health-care industries, as well as in Congress, for negative studies to have any impact whatsoever. It's great that we skeptics can pat ourselves on the back and say, "just the results we figured we'd get," but the money used could be much better spent on more constructive things.
Were I a social Darwinist, I'd be all for letting the "true believers" kill themselves off. There's got to be a "critical thinking" gene somewhere in the mix that'd take over as the population dwindled. But I'm too much of a fan of consumer-protection laws, and too much of the nonsense is geared towards short-term profit which wouldn't have much biological effect.
If I had my druthers, the NCCAM would be disbanded, and all studies into practices with a low probability of success would be, by law, funded solely by private citizens or organizations. Wasting taxpayer money on such things is more of a crime much of the fraud that goes on, itself. Of course, if I really had my druthers, every medical (or medical-like) procedure, test, or drug would be required, by law, to be tested for efficacy and safety prior to market, and not just those which failed to avoid using "disease treatment claims" in their advertising. Even weight-loss books would be subject to pre-market approval, paid for by the author and/or publishing house, and not by the legions of saps who're ten-pounds overweight and suckered by the promise of losing that tiny pudge overnight.
Which brings up an interesting, though off-topic, question: has anyone ever been required to defend the printing of a book of nonsense medical advice on 1st-Amendment grounds? Other types of "dangerous" speech have been outlawed (shouting 'fire' in a theater example goes here), so why not a book about how to cure all of one's ills using fresh sprouts?
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 01:45:05 [Permalink]
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To suggest that all prayer is equal is to disregard Jesus's teaching about prayer. "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector..." Only one of the men received an answer to his prayer. In another place, Jesus said, "don't be like the heathen who repeat prayers over and over thinking they will be heard because of much repetition..." The ingredient of faith was essential, along with a right understanding and humility before God. Prayer to false gods and dieties, such as Buddha, or Allah can not be equated to prayer with faith in Jesus and the heavenly Father. Neither can the will of God be left out of the matter, as Jesus prayed, "not my will, but thine be done". Paul says in one epistle that if one is sick they should call for the elders of the church to pray, and the prayer of faith will raise up the sick. Those that came for healing to Jesus, found it, those that didn't, did not find healing, so personal involvement was essential in one's receiving an answer to prayer, either that sick one or a friend or relative of that person.
Thus, to oversimplify prayer and lump all types into one category with the intent of proving or disproving prayer's power is a flawed study at best. For the sick persons or their families to not be involved in the process is also a flaw (such was this study). Now, were one to take personal examples of prayer and how it affected people in individual cases, that would be another study entirely. If you do not see a flaw in this "scientific study" as noted above, it could be that your understanding of prayer is skewed due to lack of personal research time.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 10/23/2003 01:53:38 |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 08:36:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
To suggest that all prayer is equal is to disregard Jesus's teaching about prayer.
That is correct, the study was not based on one deity or religious sect because the researches did not realize that out of the thousands of religous sects yours was the only right one.
I would suggest that all prayer is equal. The study indicates that prayer doesn't do anything one way or the other. I would suppose that if a person knew that people were praying for them and they believed in the power of prayer that this would have some positive influence due to a placebo effect.
The belief that only your method of prayer works because your God, your specific religious sect and your special words are answered is really quite arrogant. There is no doubt that a study could be set up to show that your very specific technique of prayer also has no positive effect. But this would be a waste of money and time I fear. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 08:51:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Prayer to false gods and dieties, such as Buddha, or Allah can not be equated to prayer with faith in Jesus and the heavenly Father. Neither can the will of God be left out of the matter, as Jesus prayed, "not my will, but thine be done".
I haven't read the study, so I wouldn't know exactly how it was conducted. I would say that the researcher was criminally neglient if he didn't separate the different religions so they were not praying for the same individual. Then, any differences would also have indicated what religion was 'true', if any.
quote:
Those that came for healing to Jesus, found it, those that didn't, did not find healing, so personal involvement was essential in one's receiving an answer to prayer, either that sick one or a friend or relative of that person.
This sounds to me like a classical case of placebo in action, and self-fulfilling prophecy.
quote:
Now, were one to take personal examples of prayer and how it affected people in individual cases, that would be another study entirely. If you do not see a flaw in this "scientific study" as noted above, it could be that your understanding of prayer is skewed due to lack of personal research time.
I have good understanding of prayer from my ten years in the Pentecostal Church, and i can think of several actions that could have been taken to ensure the validity of the test. Do not underestimate the researcher in charge. Do we really know exactly how the test was conducted?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
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Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 18:28:32 [Permalink]
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Doomar wrote:quote:
Thus, to oversimplify prayer and lump all types into one category with the intent of proving or disproving prayer's power is a flawed study at best. For the sick persons or their families to not be involved in the process is also a flaw (such was this study). Now, were one to take personal examples of prayer and how it affected people in individual cases, that would be another study entirely. If you do not see a flaw in this "scientific study" as noted above, it could be that your understanding of prayer is skewed due to lack of personal research time.
Thank you, Doomar, for illustrating my point about true believers and ad hoc hypotheses. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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