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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 10/23/2003 : 21:12:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dave W:
And debunking any of these things will do what? I posit that they will do nothing without new laws passed specifically banning the insurance companies from paying for certain types of treatment, and we can guess how that's going to fare in the courts.
quote:
Dave W:
If I had my druthers, the NCCAM would be disbanded, and all studies into practices with a low probability of success would be, by law, funded solely by private citizens or organizations. Wasting taxpayer money on such things is more of a crime much of the fraud that goes on, itself. Of course, if I really had my druthers, every medical (or medical-like) procedure, test, or drug would be required, by law, to be tested for efficacy and safety prior to market, and not just those which failed to avoid using "disease treatment claims" in their advertising. Even weight-loss books would be subject to pre-market approval, paid for by the author and/or publishing house, and not by the legions of saps who're ten-pounds overweight and suckered by the promise of losing that tiny pudge overnight.
Well, you are probably right but I'm not ready to throw in the towel. I'm still pushing for a repeal of the food supplement act and would like to see all drugs and procedures tested for safty and efficacy too. I just don't know how we can get there without doing the testing first. I don't know how we can mount a campaign against these treatments without evidence in hand showing them to be the baloney that they are. If we are going up against believers, it will not work to simply say, "we believe your wrong..."
quote:
Dave W:
Unfortunately, it is in this area which I have finally become cynical (instead of my usual reserved idealism): when push comes to shove, "true believer syndrome" is often the real winner. No matter whether the "true believer" believes in God, acupuncture, homeopathy, or what-have-you, no amount of negative evidence will sway the belief. Ad hoc hypotheses about why the evidence is wrong are very easy to fabricate, and the "true believer" is not competent to figure out why those excuses are poor, at best.
Yup. Your right about "true believers." But perhaps where these studies will have some effect are on those who haven't given much thought to how or why they believe. I have received many thank you letters from people who were thinking about purchasing the "Enforma" diet or a "Miracle Thaw Tray" until they happened on what I had to say about those things in a Kil report. I'll bet that there are way more of them than there are "true believers." Most people are not "skeptics" or "true believers." Most people want to make good decisions and do not want to be ripped off. As skeptics, those are the people we should be targeting, and it is helpful to have these studies to make our case. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2003 : 12:00:48 [Permalink]
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Doomar wrote:
quote:
Thus, to oversimplify prayer and lump all types into one category with the intent of proving or disproving prayer's power is a flawed study at best. For the sick persons or their families to not be involved in the process is also a flaw (such was this study). Now, were one to take personal examples of prayer and how it affected people in individual cases, that would be another study entirely. If you do not see a flaw in this "scientific study" as noted above, it could be that your understanding of prayer is skewed due to lack of personal research time.
This is the results of a stury that I found on the Randi.org site:
quote:
I've mentioned before the fact that the dozens of tests of power-of-prayer that are carried out every year, often at great cost, only produce a fraction of positive results, well within the expected range of error — but those are the results — the only results - that media editors choose to feature. Obviously, just another failed test of faith, if it ever gets reported at all, is simply another "non-story" for the media. That way, the impression is given that prayer has been tested and found effective.
Well, a three-year series of very comprehensive and wide-ranging tests have been carried out by a team of cardiac specialists from Duke University Medical Centre in North Carolina, involving 750 patients in nine hospitals and twelve prayer groups around the world. Those praying for the patients included American Christian mothers, nuns in a Carmelite convent in Baltimore, Sufi Muslims, Buddhist monks in Nepal and English doctors and medical students in Manchester. Prayers were even e-mailed to Jerusalem and placed in the Wailing Wall.
In accordance with proper double-blind procedure, names of patients were selected at random by a computer and were sent to the prayer groups, who began praying immediately for the recovery of those patients selected; neither the staff nor the patients knew who was being prayed for, and who was not. An analysis of the results found that there were no significant differences in the recovery and health of either group of patients.
As expected, these rather definitive results were rejected by those such as the Bishop of Durham, the Right Reverend Tom Wright, who said: "This is like setting an exam for God to see if God will pass it or not." Yep. And God failed, Reverend. Ah, but Wright pointed out that the Bible warns that you must not put God to the test. This is science, Reverend, not mythology. As reader Dan Morrison points out to us, when other, much smaller, studies in former years seemed to indicate positive results for God's powers, that divine injunction was not brought to our attention. As Dan says, "It seems that when it comes to experiments, God is a fickle participant."
As far the ill person not knowing if they are being prayed for, if they did that would be the same as telling people in a drug study if they were given a placebo or the real drug.
Sometimes people feel that they cannot overcome something on their own, like drug dependance. If it helps these people to put there faith in a higher power to get off of drugs, thats great, but it does not prove anything as far as the existence of a diety goes.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2003 : 14:12:49 [Permalink]
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This may give some indication that there is a God (and he has a sense of humor) however, it still appears that the praying thing is not working.
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Hurricane Isabel roared through Virginia Beach, Va., in September, inflicting serious property damage, despite public calls for prayer to keep it away by prominent resident Rev. Pat Robertson, whose Christian Broadcasting Network is headquartered there. (In 1998, Robertson condemned the city of Orlando, Fla., for sponsoring a Gay Days festival, and warned that the city could be torn up during the subsequent hurricane season, as God punishes those who promote homosexuality. Instead, the first hurricane of that season (Bonnie) made a direct hit on Virginia Beach.) [The Virginian-Pilot (Norfolk), 9-16-03]
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Badman
New Member
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2003 : 10:14:21 [Permalink]
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Excuse my stupidity.
I remember that after Sep. 11th, there were many people praying for the victims. Perhaps they were praying for their souls, perhaps so that a similar thing would not happen again. I don't know exactly. It seems that since in probability most of those that died were Christians, they are guaranteed eternal life ANYWAY.
If i had to pray i would ask God, "Dear God, why did you do this horrible thing?" and WAIT for the answer. I might be waiting longer than i expected. I might even die before hearing the answer.
It is not a question of whether prayer, like meditation, has beneficial effect - it is simply a matter of belief. The only thing that seperates a genius from a dunce is their level of understanding about belief. So, while 10,000 words are used to establish the existence of God or not, an infinite amount of no-words already decides whether a person believes or not. I think it is safe to say that the wise man doesn't believe without experience and therefore doesn't waste time talking with believers. After all, to believe is not to know, and to know is not to believe. So does prayer work? If you believe it... i don't. Case in point - i have had more than 100 people pray for me in the space of a year and i am still in shit!
Besides, prayer is inherently selfish. Show me someone that REALLY believes that praying for the good of others is not in some way benefiting themselves. And pray tell, how can talking TO God in your mind affect objective reality? |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2003 : 15:13:01 [Permalink]
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| This doesn't surprise me seeing as how there were MUSLIMS, and BUDDHISTS and probably other religions too praying for these poor people. Heaven forbid they do an experiment in which Christians are prayed for by fellow Christians, and Muslims by fellow Muslims, Jews by fellow Jews etc. I think any sensible Christian knows that the results would sho Christian Prayer is one of the best remedies in the world. But an experiment like this would never happen because they know that the results would be 'politically incorrect' |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2003 : 15:23:34 [Permalink]
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| "Sensible Christians" are quite free to perform such experiments, and report them. There would be nothing politically incorrect about doing so. Until such experiments are done, your assumption about what the results would be is, of course, unsupported by data. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2003 : 15:28:12 [Permalink]
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| And test God? No thanks. You wont see any Christians organizing things like that, we have our faith. Its skeptics who need proof, and they will never get a large Christian-only sample because of the socio-political rammifications. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2003 : 16:08:53 [Permalink]
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Ah, I see. If a test is run and fails, "sensible Christians" can just say that no real Christian would participate in a test of God, therefore the results don't apply to them.
If such a test succeeded, would we see the same complaint? After all, if testing God is prohibited, shouldn't that invalidate the results no matter what they are? So your claim that any "sensible Christian" knows the results already is nonsense, since such a test should never ever be done by anyone. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2003 : 16:52:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Badman
Case in point - i have had more than 100 people pray for me in the space of a year and i am still in shit!
Honestly... Did you expect results?
And more importantly: What conclusion can you draw from this?
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2003 : 17:01:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
I think any sensible Christian knows that the results would show Christian Prayer is one of the best remedies in the world.
I have first hand experience that Christians praying for a fellow Christian does Jack Shitt. Not even when an answer to prayer would bear witness of the Glory of His Only Son to many Unbelieving.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2003 : 23:03:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think any sensible Christian knows that the results would show Christian Prayer is one of the best remedies in the world.
I ripped my anterior cruciate ligament from the bone when I was playing football 6 years ago, I'm glad I had a competent doctor that could fix it. All the praying in the world wasn't going to replace my torn ligament with one from my quadricep, drill holes in my bones, thread it through and re-attach it. Notwithsatanding the rehabiltation process after that.
I was playing football a year later, if you were praying for me, I'd still be on crutches.
Edited for spelling |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
| Edited by - gezzam on 11/02/2003 23:04:00 |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2003 : 08:01:42 [Permalink]
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| Why would I pray for someone with a torn ligament? That would be a bit over the top |
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Deborah
Skeptic Friend
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2003 : 09:04:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ktesibios
This could just as well have gone in the medicine forum.
"Doctors in the United States will today disclose that heart patients who were prayed for by groups of strangers recovered from surgery at the same rate as those who were not.
The three-year study, led by cardiologists from Duke University Medical Centre in North Carolina, involved 750 patients in nine hospitals and 12 prayer groups around the world, from Christians in Manchester to Buddhists in Nepal.
Earlier, less extensive, research suggested prayer could have a measurably beneficial effect..."
Power of prayer found wanting in hospital trial
Is it just me, or does it seem like a waste to spend three years to do a scientific test of magic incantations? 
I have a question. Did any of these folks know they were being prayed for? |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2003 : 18:37:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Why would I pray for someone with a torn ligament? That would be a bit over the top
Why would it be over the top?
Surely, if your God is omnipotent, he could cure cancer as well as a torn ligament?
Why pray to God to remove headache when an aspirin would do the trick?
I once believed as you do, that Jesus gave his life for the salvation of mankind. Then I realized that it was just a hoax. The god as we know as the Judeo-Christian god, with all the stories of him in the bible, does not exist.
There may or may not be a divine presence that initiated the Big Bang, and the laws of physics that we are currently trying to uncover, but we are unable to determine its nature with the knowledge and capabilities we have today.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 11/04/2003 18:39:16 |
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