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Sea Sorbust
Skeptic Friend
USA
68 Posts |
 Posted - 12/06/2003 : 11:19:59
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From another thread:
quote:
Originally posted by Sea Sorbust
quote:
Originally posted by Renae
I just realized I'm arguing via the Internet with someone who thinks we should colonize Mars because evil scientists might try and kill us all. Good grief. I need a life. 
To quote from Dave W.: "You're an idiot, Renae."
As far as I know, Mars and biotechnology have nothing whatsoever to do with one another.
Perhaps I'm the one who is an idiot.
Been a long time and don't remember the author (think A. Clarke) but the short story was about "Earthers" who were trying to colonize the planet Jupiter, which is very massive with enormous gravity and an atmosphere which would kill a human instantly. Fortunately for the story, an gravity-control machine was available so that we had a dome on Jupiter's "surface" from which colonization could be attempted.
It's the method of planetary colonization that was in routine use throughout the Solar System that was interesting: The molecular biologists had solved the problem of taking an organism and, in short order, over hours not days, cause a total structural redesign from one species into another. In particular, in this story, for the chief-of-station and his dog, both of whom were elderly.
Through this not-too-far-fetched method, every planetary body which had indigenous lifeforms had been colonized: The colonists didn't look like humans any more, but they were. 
 End of sop. 
As to the tale: For the first time ever, the colonization process wasn't working. Every pioneer or pioneering team that was genetically transformed into what appeared to be a suitable Jovian lifeform, left the station in seemingly good form but failed to come back.
The project was to shut down as a failure but the Station Chief, being elderly, decided to go through the process himself, doing the same with his also-elderly dog. Into the machine man and dog went, both emerging as lithe, young-bodied Jovians.
As they left the station, the frigid temperatures and 400mph hurricaine winds had become, in their new Jovian bodies, pleasantly balmy in a light breeze. "Why, it's a success!" the station-master said to himself. "What could have gone wrong with everyone else? Why didn't they return?"
(Have activated spoiler code so as not to ruin the ending.)
Whereupon his dog turned to him and said in some sort of Jovian communication: "I was full of aches and pains but now I feel as good as a puppy. Do you really want to go back?"
"But we must," said the now-youthful station-chief. "It's our duty."
"But first let's run around and frisk just a little. OK?", said the dog, leaping and jumping with joy. "Well, maybe just a little," said the Chief.
And, of course, they never returned to be Earthers; life as a Jovian was just too good.
Edited to add:
Yuk! Yuk!! 
They, the geneticists of 2004, are almost already there, even though there is no doubt that the author thought such genetic modifications would not be possible until many hundreds of years futureward. What an irony!
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"This is the forest primeval...."  |
Edited by - Sea Sorbust on 12/15/2003 08:58:52
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 12/06/2003 : 11:39:51 [Permalink]
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Reading reccomendation:
Anything by John Varley, but particularly the collections of short stories written in the '70s and '80s.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2003 : 16:37:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Sea Sorbust
As they left the station, the frigid temperatures and 400mph hurricaine winds had become, in their new Jovian bodies, pleasantly balmy in a light breeze. "Why, it's a success!" the station-master said to himself. "What could have gone wrong with everyone else? Why didn't they return?"
I seem to recall a similar story from a short story collection about polymorphing aliens who was going to invade earth. The bottom line was the same. A reconnaissance troop were supposed to connect a rift-device to a nuclear plant to open up a portal for an invasion force. In the end, they abandoned the mission to live out their utopia. The philosophical alien morphed into a tree to think about things. The pilot was the last alien to give in to the temptation, he didn't think there was a place for him on earth until he saw how free the bird was.
It's been over 20 years since I read the story. I think it could have been a short novel by Asimov but I can't say for sure. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2003 : 18:22:04 [Permalink]
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Because it's Christmastime, Sea, I'm going to refrain from telling you to fuck off. I didn't even check back and wouldn't know you insulted me if you hadn't started a new topic.
Dave didn't call me an idiot; I went back and checked. Dave is more of a gentleman than that.
I'm not even going to bother to re-read the entire thread. I don't care about colonizing Mars, Jupiter, or anywhere else. I don't care to join in a discussion of science fiction. If I didn't read carefully enough and got something wrong, big deal. I don't have a science background and one of the reasons I read here is to try to get one.
I'm light years from being an idiot. I've worked in the medical and biotech fields. In addition, a close family member is a health researcher and another is a clinician. I know a little about this area.
I've seen no hue and cry to stop antibiotic use in all but the most extreme cases, as you claimed. I've seen calls to scale back the use of antibiotics because their overuse and misuse has indeed bred hardy bacteria.
I'm curious as to what you deem worthy of antibiotic treatment. Would a young woman with Pelvic Inflammatory Disease, which can cause chronic pain and infertility, among other things, be extreme enough? How about me last winter? I had walking pneumonia. Previously, I was running 15 miles a week; soon I couldn't walk across the room without getting out of breath. Should I have taken antibiotics, or lived with night sweats and shortness of breath? I don't know if the pneumonia would have killed me or not...but I couldn't even work, Sea.
Antibiotics have decreased morbidity and saved lives. That isn't even debatable by reasonable people.
Edited to avoid a flame war. Sorry.
Please excuese the threadjack and carry on. |
| Edited by - Renae on 12/06/2003 18:58:21 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2003 : 21:57:39 [Permalink]
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Renae wrote:quote:
Dave didn't call me an idiot; I went back and checked. Dave is more of a gentleman than that.
Well, I try, but I did call someone else, who's not a member of this forum (so far as I know), an idiot. Sea Sorbust seems (to me) to have taken that as license to call anybody she wants to an idiot. I've promised to try harder to avoid such ad hominems, in order to avoid my being a bad example in the future. But thank you for your support. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Sea Sorbust
Skeptic Friend
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2003 : 08:26:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Reading reccomendation:
Anything by John Varley, but particularly the collections of short stories written in the '70s and '80s.
Did you mean to post this in Book review forum? |
"This is the forest primeval...." |
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Sea Sorbust
Skeptic Friend
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2003 : 08:44:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
Because it's Christmastime, Sea, I'm going to refrain from telling you to fuck off. I didn't even check back and wouldn't know you insulted me if you hadn't started a new topic.
Dave didn't call me an idiot; I went back and checked. Dave is more of a gentleman than that.
I'm not even going to bother to re-read the entire thread. I don't care about colonizing Mars, Jupiter, or anywhere else. I don't care to join in a discussion of science fiction.
This thread was not meant to be a "discussion of science fiction."
Dave is merely a pedant; whereas you, Renae, seem to be an idiot. |
"This is the forest primeval...." |
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Sea Sorbust
Skeptic Friend
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2003 : 08:51:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Sea Sorbust
As they left the station, the frigid temperatures and 400mph hurricaine winds had become, in their new Jovian bodies, pleasantly balmy in a light breeze. "Why, it's a success!" the station-master said to himself. "What could have gone wrong with everyone else? Why didn't they return?"
.
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Yuk! Yuk!!
I seem to recall a similar story from a short story collection about polymorphing aliens who was going to invade earth.
Science Fiction, you say, eh? Are you sure about that? Or was it the polymorphed aliens paraphrasing their actual invasion so as to reap some operating funds from the publishing industry?
Edited to add: the KGB used this technique routinely; why not invading aliens? |
"This is the forest primeval...." |
| Edited by - Sea Sorbust on 12/12/2003 08:52:38 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2003 : 10:23:55 [Permalink]
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Sea Sorbust wrote:quote:
This thread was not meant to be a "discussion of science fiction."
Is there even a single sentence in your OP which is science fact? And why do you think such a far-fetched scheme would be "a sop for genetecists?" |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2003 : 10:55:55 [Permalink]
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Aw Sea, you disappoint me. You're just a garden-variety Internet troll. *sigh*
You showed a lack of understanding of the nature of antibiotics and of their real-world use. You also offer conspiracy-tinged theories of the biotech industry when apparently you know no biotech scientists and have never worked in the industry. Then you insult people. That's textbook trollin' behavior, honey.
My normal advice to trolls (and take this for how it applies to you personally): Change out of your Star Fleet Enterprise (tm) pajamas and get laid. |
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Sea Sorbust
Skeptic Friend
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2003 : 08:56:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
<snip>
I don't care about colonizing Mars, Jupiter, or anywhere else.
<snip>
It becomes plain that you also "don't care about" continuing civilization beyond the next several decades else you'd never have written such a bioilliterate sentence.
At least you are willing to admit your illiteracy in the physical sciences. That is a plus in your favor. |
"This is the forest primeval...." |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2003 : 14:06:04 [Permalink]
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| Though personal colinization of Jupiter by humans would be very difficult, colinization by our machies might well be doable. We could create some kind of machine (maybe with nanotech) that could process, and deliver to orbit, whitchever of Jupiter's many natural resources are economically useful. I envision some kind of derigible-like contraption that would float at various levels in the Jovian atmosphere, constantly processing the gasses, and preparing them to be picked up and transported by other machines to orbit, where it can be got at by humans. We could do this on all the gas giants in the solar system for a long time, giving us time to plan the next stage of our cosmic expansion. |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
| Edited by - walt fristoe on 12/16/2003 14:07:52 |
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Sea Sorbust
Skeptic Friend
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2003 : 14:36:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by walt fristoe
...We could create some kind of machine (maybe with nanotech) that could process, and deliver to orbit, whitchever of Jupiter's many natural resources are economically useful. <snip>
Assuming that it is not inhabited.
A couple of years ago, ran across a peculiar article out of NASA's JPL. While buzzing around Io and Jupiter a large flow of something, ionized metals IiRC, in a hose-like flow going from Io to Jupiter, IiRC, was measured by Galileo, IiRC.
The JPL description was purely astrophysical but it reminded me of some metallurgy process I once read about. IiRC, they slurried the desired ore and then applied current, anode to cathode or vice-versa. The desired pure metal ions precipated out. Since that process already exists Io-Jupiter, it would probably be a better method than derigibles. Certainly the JPL description immediately struck me as a mining operation; but, of course, surely not. |
"This is the forest primeval...." |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2003 : 07:40:24 [Permalink]
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"bioilliterate"
ROFL
That was funny, Sea. Let's see, can you discuss the Seattle Sonics' defensive strategy? If not, it makes you SuperSonicilliterate. Can you discuss agricultural processes in Tunisa? If not, then you're ArguiculturalprocessinTunisiailliterate.
Hmmmm, you're not a GeekGrrrl, are you? Naaahhhhh....
OK, I'm sending Lesser Renae back to the kitchen for another cup of coffee and a firm spanking.
Returning you to the original topic of the thread, whatever that was. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2003 : 13:21:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by walt fristoe
I envision some kind of derigible-like contraption that would float at various levels in the Jovian atmosphere, constantly processing the gasses, and preparing them to be picked up and transported by other machines to orbit, where it can be got at by humans. We could do this on all the gas giants in the solar system for a long time, giving us time to plan the next stage of our cosmic expansion.
I don't see this as being an option until we learn how to make machines that can counter gravity. The Gravity-well that is Jupiter takes enormous amounts of energy to negotiate. Our rockets barely escapes Earth. Jupiter with a gravity more than 200 times higher, there's just no chance of escaping. At least without anti-grav engines.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Sea Sorbust
Skeptic Friend
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2003 : 11:25:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Sea Sorbust wrote:quote:
This thread was not meant to be a "discussion of science fiction."
Is there even a single sentence in your OP which is science fact? And why do you think such a far-fetched scheme would be "a sop for genetecists?"
Because of what I wrote in the Edit at the bottom. To wit:
quote:
They, the geneticists of 2004, are almost already there, even though there is no doubt that the author thought such genetic modifications would not be possible until many hundreds of years futureward. What an irony!
Confess that my biointerests are in cell biology rather than in molecular biology/genetics. Molecular biologists make me very nervous for reasons discussed elsewhere; worry very much both about accidental, virulent creations and about bioterrorism. The "sop" part is that the notion of genetically transforming an organism into one with a different genotype allows for interplanetary colonization. Otherwise, with the exception of Mars and the Moon, don't think that self-sustaining colonization of another planet is feasible. 
In another thread someone noted that they were scared spitless by thoughts of km-wide asteroid strike. Such a strike would be bad, easily causing the death of tens of millions, but it doesn't scare me anywhere near as much as biotechnological research. So I wrote this thread as a "sop for molecular biologists." Not much of a sop, of course, for first we would have to find an appropriate, intelligent Jovian species and decode their genotype, assuming they even have a genotype. (Sorry for the bolding.)
P.S. What happened to the "undocumented spoiler code" as documented in the FAQ? It worked for a while then stopped working. Even better question: What happened to the sticky that discussed the undocumented spoiler code? Is I going bonkers? |
"This is the forest primeval...." |
| Edited by - Sea Sorbust on 12/23/2003 11:36:52 |
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